Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[InArduisFouette]

Do you deny the numbers of people and circumstances involved here are absolutely minute? If not, then it is is factual to say it's not of particular importance when talking about major social issues in women's sport. We've spent considerably less time talking about any number of things which affect sportswomen considerably more. Pay, for example. Or abusive coaches.

I'd be quite interested to hear an actual sportswoman talk on such things, defining what they care about changing, but apparently, according so I dunno, somebody or other, this is the topic.

read Blair Hamiliton's PhD then as this is the current state of the art on the evidence base and includes a 4-legged comparision of sports performance across a discipline agnostic set of tests and studying men and women cisgender and transgender...

 

[danny la rouge]

This particular exchange began because Danny decided that concern about women's sport is irrelevant and unimportant, so maybe address his attitude before you criticise me for pointing that out.

That’s not exactly what I said. I didn’t address the concept “concern” at all. I addressed the number of trans women in elite sport.

I did so in response to another post. And actually that was already a derail from the serious topic of the thread. The trend of a rise in violence and hate against trans people is, I’m sure, something you deplore, despite your focus on “concerns”, which actually aren’t the focus of this thread at all.

In an attempt to get things refocused I posted the post 1134, and I still wonder if you’ve read it and whether you approve of its content in general.

 

[danny la rouge]

Do you deny the numbers of people and circumstances involved regarding trans people in sport are absolutely minute? If not, then it is factual to say it's not of particular importance when talking about major social issues in women's sport. We've spent considerably less time talking about any number of things which affect sportswomen considerably more. Pay, for example. Or abusive coaches.

I'd be quite interested to hear an actual sportswoman talk on such things, defining what they care about changing, but apparently, according to I dunno, somebody or other, this is the topic.

100%

 

[Lotte]

Do you deny the numbers of people and circumstances involved regarding trans people in sport are absolutely minute? If not, then it is factual to say it's not of particular importance when talking about major social issues in women's sport. We've spent considerably less time talking about any number of things which affect sportswomen considerably more. Pay, for example. Or abusive coaches.

I'd be quite interested to hear an actual sportswoman talk on such things, defining what they care about changing, but apparently, according to I dunno, somebody or other, this is the topic.

This. I mean, Luis Rubiales is RIGHT FUCKING THERE. But no, Navratilova, Davies and Riley Gaines are the only sportswomen whose opinions matter, and sportswomen who are fine with trans team mates or competing against trans women are handmaidens. Gary Lineker, who had been regularly tweeting about the women's World Cup, had a go at Luis Rubiales. Glinner, who has no interest in football and didn't even say anything about his own team, had a go at Lineker for not supporting Sharron Davies - who is a swimmer, not a footballer - an implied that you can't really care about women's sport unless you support her. It's also telling how people like Paul Embery and Julie Burchill made the Lionesses' victory about their trans hateboner. If a man had gone on about Chloe Kelly's tits and how it's a shame trans men are having mastectomies, he'd be called a perv.

And the physical strength argument falls down when it comes to snooker, not to mention that snooker has mixed tournaments. Arm length doesn't matter because you can use a cue extender. But you still get people calling for trans snooker players to be banned.

 

[Balbi]

Santino shut the fuck up dude.

Desperate attempt to drag things back on topic. These two articles are from the last four or so days.

The NZ equivalent of the BBC:

Criticism of puberty blockers misguided, trans girl's mother says

The mother of a transgender teenager says having her child come out at the age of eight let her and her family take "a deep collective breath".

www.rnz.co.nz

What access to puberty blockers means for trans young people and their whānau

The Ministry of Health has delayed the release of its evidence brief on puberty blockers. While we wait, Julia de Bres speaks to those with firsthand experience.

thespinoff.co.nz

A week or so ago there was a Labour and a National (Tory) MP on the radio talking about puberty blockers and it's not all great, but you have a Tory MP saying the following:

"We should be having gender affirming health care where we're supportive of people and inclusive and we have to be very careful with this debate because people are going to inject very different views into it and our young people are watching us"

There's a lot of what you'd hear on the BBC or in the Times or the Telegraph in NZ, but it's on the right wing TalkBack station.

What strikes me is how absent the perspective of trans healthcare professionals, families with trans kids, or any mainstream coverage of MPs who are broadly trans supportive.

Instead you've got Sunak chatting absolute transphobic dogshit and Wesley Streeting recanting his support for trans people as who they are on a fucking Sun video with Harry Cole.

By the way, the two articles up top there are already subject to complaint from NZs frothiest British transphobia fans to the NZ media council and broadcasting standards agency. Why? Because talking to trans people and their families isnt balanced, as in it doesn't allow them to spread their imported nonsense.

 

[Lotte]

I wonder how many of the people going to see Glinner on his FSU jolly down under were Brits. From what other Aussies and Kiwis have said, it just isn't the issue it is here, despite imported TERFs and the likes of the Landys trying to make it so.

 

[Santino]

That’s not exactly what I said. I didn’t address the concept “concern” at all. I addressed the number of trans women in elite sport.

It's very difficult to read this as anything other than criticism of people being bothered about women's sport:

I’m amazed how much this particular issue comes up... ..... I'm surprised anyone has the energy or headspace to have an opinion on this, never mind get all worked up about it on the internet.....

 

[Balbi]

It's not that it's not an issue, it's just not got the same full throated establishment media support and the two main political parties leave it to the other smaller parties to take it on.

Conversion therapy was banned with majority support from both parties, mostly the same for gender self-ID.

When KJK came down here and got tomato juiced it was portrayed as extremely violent. I can say that she was lucky she didn't get worse, not just because she's a terrible human being who is not welcome here but basically everything she did before arriving and some coincidental stuff completely fucked her over.

A few weeks before her visit, Georgina Beyer passed. Māori, a former sex worker, fierce advocate for sex workers rights and NZs first trans MP, elected in 1999 after being elected mayor of Carterton a small rural town in 1995.

Aunty Georgina was a powerhouse, she stood out on Parliament steps when our Christian right wingers protested civil unions back in 2004 and gave them both fucking barrels.

Having some no mark British dipshit turn up and spout shit about the trans community so close to her passing was a guaranteed way to fuck everyone off.

Then there was the nazi thing. In Melbourne, a load of honest to god neo fascists turned up with a banner about paedo scum. The cops set their line up between the trans rights protestors, the fascists and KJK - the fash said they were there to support her. They were the same group who'd tried to recruit the Christchurch terrorist. Oh, and it was the fourth anniversary of the Christchurch mosque attack.

KJK didn't know it but she'd managed to offend the LGBTQI community by just existing, but compounded it by stabbing at a beloved political figure who'd recently died and then was associated with the guy who carried out the worst terror attack on NZ soil. And she wondered why 5000+ people rocked up to tell her to fuck off.

Tomato juice was lucky I swear to god. She was escorted to the airport and left the country, cancelling her other rally date.

I wrote about why British transphobia doesn't fit in NZ here, and it's probably the best thing I've written since the pandemic: Ghosts In The Map — 1/200

I also wrote about how the cheap slogans of the conspiratorial right are basically fascist thought given a catchphrase: Sticking Plasters — 1/200

It doesn't fit here but that doesn't mean it isn't a threat.

One of our YouTuber guys Robbie, did a good video about NZ transphobia here:

The quote about how ridiculous but dangerous the anti trans movement are: "A clown car will still kill you if it runs you over" is from treef.

 

[Santino]

In an attempt to get things refocused I posted the post 1134, and I still wonder if you’ve read it and whether you approve of its content in general.

Without going through it point by point, I would say I have mixed feelings about parts of it.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Can you think of any reasons why women don't register their opinions on some of these issues?

Is it because their husbands do it for them? Honestly though, who are you representing here?

I've noticed that you don't ever really share your views openly, preferring to swipe at others (who do have the courage to contribute and are open to learning) from the sidelines. I find that a very cowardly posting style. What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid every time my child walks to the shops that they might be attacked for being trans. I clock watch and feel anxious till they return. Yesterday I made an excuse for them to wear their trainers instead of their sliders as I feared they'd struggle to defend themselves or run away if their shoes fell off. These are my concerns.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's very difficult to read this as anything other than criticism of people being bothered about women's sport:

I’d say that you’ve removed the context of what I was saying, and that you’ve widened the parameters of the topic I was discussing. Please note, I’m not saying you are doing this dishonestly. I think you’re doing it from your way of seeing things.

In my post I carefully used the terms “elite athletes”, and “professional athletes”. I am careful to point out I am talking about the number of trans women competing at that level. It is tiny.

In my further responses to you, I admitted that competitive sport of any kind is very, very low down my list of priorities. However, I maintain that I find it hard to see, given the number of trans women competing at elite or profession level, why it would be higher up people’s list of priorities than certainly the thread topic (the rise in hate and violence against trans people) - which I’m am sure is something you deplore - but also the topics Rob Ray brought up. Those must surely be higher priorities for people interested in professional and elite women’s sport.

Without going through it point by point, I would say I have mixed feelings about parts of it.

Well mixed is better than wholly antagonistic. I’m assuming that means there are areas you agree with. If I’m correct, that means we have some common ground at least.

I’m further assuming that the area you have mixed feelings about is the points I make about the social transitioning of trans teens and the use of puberty blockers. That’s something I suggest you seek out the experience of trans teens about. I’m sure you will have read the opinions of those who have “concerns”. But I come from the starting point of compassion, empathy and solidarity for people who are suffering dys - phoria: distress, misery.

That people already experiencing distress and misery are being singled out for hate, abuse, violence and murder is surely something we can both deplore, and would both prioritise much, much higher than any opinion somebody might have on the tiny number of trans women competing at professional or elite level in sport.

And therefore we much surely agree this thread deserves not to be diverted too far from the topic declared in its title and OP.

 

[krtek a houby]

What are you afraid of?

A very important question. For everyone posting.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm afraid every time my child walks to the shops that they might be attacked for being trans. I clock watch and feel anxious till they return. Yesterday I made an excuse for them to wear their trainers instead of their sliders as I feared they'd struggle to defend themselves or run away if their shoes fell off. These are my concerns.

Absolutely the highest priority on this thread. It’s experiences like yours and Cloo ‘s and Balbi ’s that I come here for. I fully understand why people who are trans themselves might not have the energy or will to “provide learning experiences” for non trans people. But as long as parents and partners are able to share, I think listening is very, very valuable to the rest of us. So thank you.

 

[danny la rouge]

* I should explain that I mean: as long as you find sharing valuable. I don’t expect it as a service!

 

[Cloo]

I find it both ludicrous and infuriating that I have to be more worried about my child being gender nonconforming and doing things like going to Trans Pride than I would have had to feel 5 years ago. Because of fucking people on national media sitting there pumping out misinformation and 'nut picking' worst case scenarios about 'danger to women' that now means because my child looks a tad androgynous a lot of the time more of the worst people feel more empowered to have a go. I mean, we are helped a lot with being in London where everyone acts too world-weary to oddity to start something most of the time, but as I think I've mentioned we have told them never to wear 'drag king' style makeup unless they're with a group because it might set off some goddamn Neanderthal who has picked up an idea that anything blurring the lines of gender is fucked up and dangerous.

The media printing and sharing this crap should be utterly ashamed, and the government should be ashamed for making less than 0.5% of the population an electoral issue - I find that deeply sinister. But no amount of harm to trans people is going to make them reconsider it seems.

 

[Cloo]

I should also add, their attitude means more harm to women - girls, you'd better have long hair and dress 'feminine' and be under 5ft 8 or else the 'we can always tell' lot might set themselves or someone else on you for using the loo or the changing room or taking part in sports with other women.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Absolutely the highest priority on this thread. It’s experiences like yours and Cloo ‘s and Balbi ’s that I come here for. I fully understand why people who are trans themselves might not have the energy or will to “provide learning experiences” for non trans people. But as long as parents and partners are able to share, I think listening is very, very valuable to the rest of us. So thank you.

or trans folx are just sick and fed up of being expected to provide, for free, a fully referenced evidence based arguement , over stuff which was litigated to death sometimes 30 years ago (work place stuff as the EA 2010 protections were all ready in place long before Older Leglislation and from case law before the 99 regs - hence my comment aobur 30 years) and the start of the birth ceritifcate stuff that lead to GRA2004) and still to be told by some little nerk with wanker's remorse that they are wrong

 

[Lotte]

I am really, really fucking tired of 'women' being equated with TERFs. As in 'oh, so you won't let women speak?', which is a common TERF line. Women are not a hive mind and Posie Parker and her ilk do not speak for me, and neither does Julie Burchill. And I resent being used as a shield by cis men.

Cloo, TERFs were upset about Dominic Calvert-Lewin wearing a skirt. He's a cis man but they were calling him a pervert and all sorts, and talking about how they missed the days when men were men, and gleefully egging on men posting their violent fantasies about wanting to beat him up or watching him have his legs blown off by a bomb. Calvert-Lewin isn't even trans but he still caused an outcry. Same with a John Lewis ad with a little boy wearing a skirt. (Incidentally, when DCL announced his girlfriend was pregnant, there were a good few comments from people who were surprised he wasn't gay.)

 

[Santino]

Is it because their husbands do it for them? Honestly though, who are you representing here?

I might be incorrect that women have withdrawn from these conversations, but don't you think it's possible that it happens? Or is the very suggestion somehow self-contradictory?

I appreciate that you don't feel you can't contribute, but in this debate you're not expressing the views that lead people to be accused of bigotry or insufficient compassion.

I'm afraid every time my child walks to the shops that they might be attacked for being trans. I clock watch and feel anxious till they return. Yesterday I made an excuse for them to wear their trainers instead of their sliders as I feared they'd struggle to defend themselves or run away if their shoes fell off. These are my concerns.

I'm very sorry to hear that, and it's not something I'd wish on anyone.

 

[Lotte]

I should also add, their attitude means more harm to women - girls, you'd better have long hair and dress 'feminine' and be under 5ft 8 or else the 'we can always tell' lot might set themselves or someone else on you for using the loo or the changing room or taking part in sports with other women.

Already happened, butch women have been stopped from using women's toilets and transvestigators are a thing. I'm dreading the TERF reaction to Christiane Endler, because she's cis but you just know some of them will assume she's trans because she's over 6ft.

 

[Rob Ray]

don't you think it's possible that it happens?

It definitely has happened - in fact women and men, cis and trans have left this thread and others. But afaics the women who have voiced an opinion as to why have not particularly laid blame at the feet of people with pro-trans views. Mostly afaics it's been to do with guys, like yourself (and not saying I'm perfect here either), shouting, dominating and male-filtering the conversation then leaning on them for validation. Not that I'm any sort of expert on the matter, but to be absolutely clear here, neither are you.

 

[smokedout]

I think it's pretty understandable why terfs claim to be speaking for women because they believe that women's interests are furthered by their aims, whether other women agree with them or not. That's pretty common in politics, many of us here would say we are speaking for the working class despite the knowledge that many working class people may not share our politics.

But the truth is many or possibly most women do not agree with terf rhetoric and many, especially feminists, believe it is actively harmful to women (of all kinds). Which is why it's so repellent when men spout this shit claiming to be speaking for women. They are deciding for women what is in their interests based on what is actually a very niche position at it's extremes at least. And it's notable how rarely these men speak out on other issues affecting women with the same obsessive virulence.

 

[Rob Ray]

TERFs were upset about Dominic Calvert-Lewin wearing a skirt. He's a cis man but they were calling him a pervert and all sorts, and talking about how they missed the days when men were men, and gleefully egging on men posting their violent fantasies

Mm probably not TERFs by that point I'd think. It'd be interesting to know how many people previously into radical feminism have gotten drawn into more conservative/traditionalist views as part of the transphobia pipeline, but probably not something that's easily quantified.

 

[Lotte]

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Like supposedly GC parents who want to force their trans sons to like make-up and 'girl' stuff.

Smokedout, you've articulated it better than I could. Glinner almost never talks about abortion, equal pay, femicide, FGM, I'd bet he won't be talking about this horrible new AI beauty contest either, and on the rare occasions he does, it always comes back to trans people. Embery and Walsh are even worse - isn't Embery one of those 'women are happier being homemakers and raising kids' red/brown types? I bet if England women had lost the Euro final, Embery would have gone on about how women's football is woke lefty nonsense that nobody cares about. (I read the report on the BBC of Everton v Brighton a few days ago and it was depressing how many comments had been deleted, and I can guess why.)

You can see how transparent they are by how quickly they turn on women who don't agree with them. It was the same with Tommy Robinson and his cultists - any grooming gang survivor who said she didn't hate all Muslims, or didn't want him speaking for her, got loads of angry men telling her she deserved to be raped by P***s and equally vile comments. Even Sammy Woodhouse gets it and she's been relatively neutral about Robinson. Meanwhile, Glinner calls any woman who disagrees with him a 'handmaiden' and gets angry when GC women ask why a man is getting credit for their work.

 

[Callie]

I might be incorrect that women have withdrawn from these conversations, but don't you think it's possible that it happens? Or is the very suggestion somehow self-contradictory?

Women? One homogeneous lump? Claire?!

Or do you mean some women. Or do you mean some people?

Lots of people withdraw from these types of conversations because they are heated, often contain robust replies from both sides. It's not a women thing in that respect.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Like supposedly GC parents who want to force their trans sons to like make-up and 'girl' stuff.

Smokedout, you've articulated it better than I could. Glinner almost never talks about abortion, equal pay, femicide, FGM, I'd bet he won't be talking about this horrible new AI beauty contest either, and on the rare occasions he does, it always comes back to trans people. Embery and Walsh are even worse - isn't Embery one of those 'women are happier being homemakers and raising kids' red/brown types? I bet if England women had lost the Euro final, Embery would have gone on about how women's football is woke lefty nonsense that nobody cares about. (I read the report on the BBC of Everton v Brighton a few days ago and it was depressing how many comments had been deleted, and I can guess why.)

You can see how transparent they are by how quickly they turn on women who don't agree with them. It was the same with Tommy Robinson and his cultists - any grooming gang survivor who said she didn't hate all Muslims, or didn't want him speaking for her, got loads of angry men telling her she deserved to be raped by P***s and equally vile comments. Even Sammy Woodhouse gets it and she's been relatively neutral about Robinson. Meanwhile, Glinner calls any woman who disagrees with him a 'handmaiden' and gets angry when GC women ask why a man is getting credit for their work.

Embery is best remembered for the beauty sleep ahead of saving lives era of FBU policy ...

of course a result of that era is Ambulance HART getting all it's shiny kit,

but it;s worth remembering that the FBU eventually won on their decision to kick him out of the unio and dismiss him from the role he had held in FBU Head office for a many years ...

 

[danny la rouge]

I might be incorrect that women have withdrawn from these conversations, but don't you think it's possible that it happens? Or is the very suggestion somehow self-contradictory?

I had withdrawn from these debates for a long time. It’s only recently that I came to the realisation that doing so was a cop out and self defeating.

 

[Lotte]

Embery is best remembered for the beauty sleep ahead of saving lives era of FBU policy ...

of course a result of that era is Ambulance HART getting all it's shiny kit,

but it;s worth remembering that the FBU eventually won on their decision to kick him out of the unio and dismiss him from the role he had held in FBU Head office for a many years ...

Apologies for tangent, but is that why he's jumped on the anti-woke bandwagon?

 

[InArduisFouette]

Apologies for tangent, but is that why he's jumped on the anti-woke bandwagon?

Embery is an odd character , he first came across my radar during the 'beauty sleep before saving lives ' era of FBU politics as others have said he belongs to that group of very soically conservative supposed socialists ..

 

[Santino]

I had withdrawn from these debates for a long time. It’s only recently that I came to the realisation that doing so was a cop out and self defeating.

What equivalence, if any, do you draw between the two different phenomena?