Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Jennaonthebeach]

.

 

[cesare]

Assuming good faith from those with a gc perspective is a brave position.

I'm too cynical by far, but I think their post achieved exactly what it was intended to achieve from a poster whose proud of their consistent contraianism. Three pages of accusations and recriminations.

Reminds me of how the other threads of this type eventually went down, often ending up way clear of the topic and getting pretty nasty.

Turning a "here's the results of transphobia in Britain" thread into a "this poster allegedly said this thing about another poster, no I won't be linking to it just trust me bro" thread would be a good outcome if you didn't like the direction the thread was going.

Like I said though, I'm far too cynical for obvious reasons.

So, in your backdrop, is anything wrong with calling him out to explain?

Spymaster

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Right, i said i was going to do this, and now i will. Am putting this thread on ignore.

 

[Balbi]

Nah that's fine I'm just not sure they'll bother, because the opportunity has definitely been there but hasn't been taken so far.

 

[cesare]

oh dear, i've offended you. Never mind. I actually don't give a fuck about the feelings of cis people, allies or not.

I've been called all sorts on here and not seen you defending me.

Yeah, you haven't offended me unfortunately

 

[cesare]

Nah that's fine I'm just not sure they'll bother, because the opportunity has definitely been there but hasn't been taken so far.

We can take an adverse inference if they don't.

 

[Balbi]

We can take an adverse inference if they don't.

I think the last few pages are the adverse inference that can be drawn, and if Spy turns up and provides clear links to the accusation they made which has been denied by others then ok.

If it's drawn out into a semantic discussion over another ten pages then the threads done, and probably has been done since it turned from the topic.

Shame, because you've got parents of trans kids, trans people and their partners in here sharing their experiences of what it's like to be on the receiving end here.

Threads probably done though, and it's not because of the people in the previous para here, but it is to do with those who've adopted the opposite position.

I came back to check in and found a good thread about something that's really relevant that was a world away from that bad thread a few years back.

 

[krtek a houby]

Why are you that bothered?

Nobody ever gave a crap about a trans person being called the p word.

They do here.

Understand (really do) your anger, but you have allies here.

 

[cesare]

I think the last few pages are the adverse inference that can be drawn, and if Spy turns up and provides clear links to the accusation they made which has been denied by others then ok.

If it's drawn out into a semantic discussion over another ten pages then the threads done, and probably has been done since it turned from the topic.

Shame, because you've got parents of trans kids, trans people and their partners in here sharing their experiences of what it's like to be on the receiving end here.

Threads probably done though, and it's not because of the people in the previous para here, but it is to do with those who've adopted the opposite position.

I came back to check in and found a good thread about something that's really relevant that was a world away from that bad thread a few years back.

Well I'd want to hold Spy to account but if you think that's a waste of time and energy, fine.

Edit: that might not be what you were saying. But it's true that I'm uncomfortable with this thread and it's not for me to try and hold Spy accountable, fuck it.

 

[Balbi]

I haven't said you don't try and do that TBF. Just that I'm not going to do that.

It's taken this from a discussion about the wider issue, to something different and a lot smaller and a lot nastier.

If you consider how many times the community has had to prove it isn't something that it's been accused of, or the accuser just outright refuses to justify their claim - and just keeps repeating it until it's everywhere, exhausting doesn't cover it.

"This trans poster called this other gc poster a paedophile once", no evidence, is now three pages later with some trans posters having pretty much established their position in detail over multiple posts while the gc accuser has posted once since then "oh I was being sarcastic when I said this" and not addressing the accusation at all.

Exhausting doesn't cover it.

Yeah, I'm out of here. Ka kite ano.

 

[cesare]

I haven't said you don't try and do that TBF. Just that I'm not going to do that.

It's taken this from a discussion about the wider issue, to something different and a lot smaller and a lot nastier.

If you consider how many times the community has had to prove it isn't something that it's been accused of, or the accuser just outright refuses to justify their claim - and just keeps repeating it until it's everywhere, exhausting doesn't cover it.

"This trans poster called this other gc poster a paedophile once", no evidence, is now three pages later with some trans posters having pretty much established their position in detail over multiple posts while the gc accuser has posted once since then "oh I was being sarcastic when I said this" and not addressing the accusation at all.

Exhausting doesn't cover it.

Yeah, I'm out of here. Ka kite ano.

I don't think that you fucking off helps matters. I'll fuck off instead cos I'm surplus and accept that. Come back and carry on the good stuff X X

 

[smokedout]

Arrives in thread.

Makes serious accusation against another poster and derails thread.

Provides no evidence.

Leaves.

To be fair it was santino who started the derail and spymaster just escalated it, as he did on the last trans thread. But it's the same handful of men, over and over again, who do this shit on trans threads.

Don't go cesare, hopefully the thread will get back on track

 

[danny la rouge]

To be fair it was santino who started the derail

And I took the bait. I shouldn’t have allowed myself to be sucked in. The purpose of the thread is too important.

 

[Spymaster]

Sorry cesare, I put this thread back on ignore after my response to Pilch yesterday, so didn't receive your tags. I've had a quick search and it seems I may indeed be mistaken about the suggestion of paedophilia. Unless it's somewhere else, I'm likely thinking of this, the allegation is actually that LBJ advocates the torture of children. A genuine mistake which I'm happy to set straight. Sorry for putting you in that position.

 

[Santino]

And I took the bait. I shouldn’t have allowed myself to be sucked in. The purpose of the thread is too important.

I responded to a post in which you dismissed concern about women's sport as unimportant and irrelevant, a topic you swiftly admitted you didn't know much about.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think that you fucking off helps matters. I'll fuck off instead cos I'm surplus and accept that. Come back and carry on the good stuff X X

never

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm not sure i've got the energy for rioting these days...

that's what speed's for

 

[Balbi]

So this thread has spent three pages relitigating previous beef from a discussion that, on examination is the exact same toxic bullshit that sank many, many previous threads on this topic?

And yeah looks like lbj was advocating for conversion therapy in that thread, and quoting some pretty insane anti trans folks at the same time to justify it. They made that shit illegal here a few years ago because it is proven to be quackery that harms.

And nobody who contributed to that thread then has the capacity to reflect on how this keeps happening, that it's the same people each time, with the same result?

Turning up on a thread about transphobic hate crimes and the moral panic about trans people and going "this trans poster called this poster a paedo" and being completely fucking wrong is wild as shit. It's another little piece of the moral panic, another little dig at trans people, another exhausting falsehood that has to be dealt with before trying to get back to the subject.

I dunno maybe these just asking questions, just quoting anti trans folks, just making shit up folks think there's some fun to be had in rarking up a minority community thats watching rights theyve had in public life be slowly rolled back - sports, public toilets, hospital wards, healthcare. Because they're not actually having it happen to them. It's just an intellectualised debate.

But you're just coming off as complete cunts, playful ghouls to the fucking bone.

I left the UK ten years ago, and my family can't really ever think about living in the UK because it's so toxic for trans people. I live somewhere that has gender self-ID and banned conversion therapy and the world didn't fucking end. We've got a healthcare system set up for gender care that isn't segregated like the UK, no single bottleneck like GIDS and that works too.

And yet the ferocity of the fucking transphobes in the UK means we have to fight exactly the same kind of fucking British terf island ideology that's literally coming over here like fleas in fucking blankets two hundred years ago. It's not homegrown, every single anti trans group here links back to the fucking UK and their fucking insane group of people who genuinely do not believe trans people exist, they think all trans women are sicko perverts and all trans men are mentally ill who've been tricked into it.

I've seen transition turn my husband into the full person they were meant to be, we're raising our beautiful kid who knows one of his daddies was his mummy but changed - and yet I'll see the UK say the transformative life improving healthcare is actually not proven to work. Or there'll be claims that being trans is an illness, a problem to be solved by therapy and denying treatment. That we're not fit to be parents, or around kids.

All of this we see, and we hug our kid right and reassure ourselves that what the UK is turning into couldn't happen here. I've been back to the UK three times in the last decade. Treefs has been back once, and never since he transitioned. Guess why.

Anyway, cheerio.

 

[danny la rouge]

I responded to a post in which you dismissed concern about women's sport as unimportant and irrelevant, a topic you swiftly admitted you didn't know much about.

I know what I need to know.

What is your response to my post here:

I'm going to take a step away from these allegations and try to move the discussion back to the thread topic. I know I played a part in the sidetrack, so I'm going to try to play a part in moving things back.

I'll probably get things wrong, because I'm in no way clued up on trans issues or literature. I just come at these things from a position of respecting other human beings. I try to listen and learn, but I get things wrong. I'm 59. I've been socialised for decades in a patriarchal, sexist society that has very rigid ideas of gender roles and expression.

But I've also long known that the social norms are a straitjacket. Back in the 80s I favoured the movement for gender neutral pronouns. In the 90s, when my daughters were born, we tried to keep their toys gender neutral. They both rebelled against that, teaching me the sheer power of societal norm-building.

With that background, I understand that trans people already have a lot to deal with as they grow up. It must be a huge struggle. And especially as the proportion of trans people in society is so small, they are very unlikely to have encountered anyone else going through the same thing. They will feel isolated. And probably as if they are the only one like them.

This will have been alleviated somewhat by the visibility movement of the decades since the millenium. Social media visibility and seeing trans people in film and tv roles will have been a help to trans people growing up now, that trans people in my generation won't have had. The tv and film portrayals will obviously have had problems, in the same way that LGB visibility in the media has had during my lifetime. But the increased representation has probably been overall a good thing, both for trans kids themselves and for the wider population to get used to the idea that they exist.

However, as with gay people before, the press, especially the tabloid press, focus on the prurient. LGB people were, and still are at times, seen as "sex people" first, and human beings second, if at all. Similarly coverage of trans and non binary people is all about genitals. It's quite the obsession.

This is where I'm going to get things wrong, because I'm not trans, I've never to my knowledge discussed genitals with anyone trans or non binary, and my sociology framework was learned in the 80s. So excuse me if I get terms wrong, but I'm coming from a place of respect.

I don't know how gender dysphoria works, but I imagine it as a feeling of distress. Just from breaking the word down into its parts. Dys phoria. The opposite of euphoria. I imagine it as distress at having to live within a gender role, with gender expression, that doesn't feel right for oneself.

Again, I'm floundering in the realms of empathy rather than direct experience, but I know that just as gender identity isn't the same for everyone, neither is the experience the same for all trans people. And I understand that genital surgery isn't necessarily right for all trans people.

This doesn't surprise me. Genitals are not the centre of my being either. They aren't what I base my personality on. And I generally keep them covered. We probably need to move the discussion away from genitals. It's weird, it's private, and it's not what the focus should be.

Again, I'm willing to bet I get something wrong here, but of more importance to many trans people will be outward presentation. And face and body shape and voice pitch will be of huge psychological importance. This is why puberty blockers are of importance to trans teens. If these outward signs of gender presentation are causing them distress, then of course hormone treatment to alleviate that will be helpful to their mental well-being. That stands to reason.

Hormone therapy is not surgery. Puberty is routinely delayed for kids who hit puberty early. When the treatment stops, puberty kicks back in. The idea that this is irreversible is wrong, and frankly scaremongering. Also the scare stories of incidences of regret are exaggerated. There are very few trans people. There are huge barriers for teens getting hormone treatment. The delays are lengthy. And the percentage of those who regret transition are smaller than those who regret, for example, abortion. And social transitioning is reversible.

The idea that any of this is "child abuse" is wrong. The abuse is denying treatment to people who can have their distress alleviated.

What society needs to face is its notions of gender role, gender identity and gender presentation. These do not need to be as they've "always" been. ('Always' in quotes, because actually history and socioanthropology have counter examples).

What we need to do is listen to what people are telling us, and be less sure that what we learned as social roles are "natural".

 

[Santino]

I know what I need to know.

What is your response to my post here:

Do you know enough to confidently tell women who should and shouldn't be allowed to compete in their teams?

Is there any particular part of your post you want a response to?

 

[danny la rouge]

Do you know enough to confidently tell women who should and shouldn't be allowed to compete in their teams?

I think you should reread my original post on the topic. I don’t attempt to tell anyone anything about who should compete anywhere.

Is there any particular part of your post you want a response to?

The general thrust. This is a thread about the rise in violence and hate against trans people. I attempted to get it back on track by expressing my solidarity, compassion and empathy as a human being.

 

[Rob Ray]

Do you know enough to confidently tell women who should and shouldn't be allowed to compete in their teams?

Do you?

Seems to me you talk as though you're the only one who's listened to cis women and speak on their collective behalf when telling off other guys. But cis women are on the whole more accepting of trans people then men, and the opinion of women is not in any way united around the perspective you're putting forward.

 

[krtek a houby]

So this thread has spent three pages relitigating previous beef from a discussion that, on examination is the exact same toxic bullshit that sank many, many previous threads on this topic?

And yeah looks like lbj was advocating for conversion therapy in that thread, and quoting some pretty insane anti trans folks at the same time to justify it. They made that shit illegal here a few years ago because it is proven to be quackery that harms.

And nobody who contributed to that thread then has the capacity to reflect on how this keeps happening, that it's the same people each time, with the same result?

Turning up on a thread about transphobic hate crimes and the moral panic about trans people and going "this trans poster called this poster a paedo" and being completely fucking wrong is wild as shit. It's another little piece of the moral panic, another little dig at trans people, another exhausting falsehood that has to be dealt with before trying to get back to the subject.

I dunno maybe these just asking questions, just quoting anti trans folks, just making shit up folks think there's some fun to be had in rarking up a minority community thats watching rights theyve had in public life be slowly rolled back - sports, public toilets, hospital wards, healthcare. Because they're not actually having it happen to them. It's just an intellectualised debate.

But you're just coming off as complete cunts, playful ghouls to the fucking bone.

I left the UK ten years ago, and my family can't really ever think about living in the UK because it's so toxic for trans people. I live somewhere that has gender self-ID and banned conversion therapy and the world didn't fucking end. We've got a healthcare system set up for gender care that isn't segregated like the UK, no single bottleneck like GIDS and that works too.

And yet the ferocity of the fucking transphobes in the UK means we have to fight exactly the same kind of fucking British terf island ideology that's literally coming over here like fleas in fucking blankets two hundred years ago. It's not homegrown, every single anti trans group here links back to the fucking UK and their fucking insane group of people who genuinely do not believe trans people exist, they think all trans women are sicko perverts and all trans men are mentally ill who've been tricked into it.

I've seen transition turn my husband into the full person they were meant to be, we're raising our beautiful kid who knows one of his daddies was his mummy but changed - and yet I'll see the UK say the transformative life improving healthcare is actually not proven to work. Or there'll be claims that being trans is an illness, a problem to be solved by therapy and denying treatment. That we're not fit to be parents, or around kids.

All of this we see, and we hug our kid right and reassure ourselves that what the UK is turning into couldn't happen here. I've been back to the UK three times in the last decade. Treefs has been back once, and never since he transitioned. Guess why.

Anyway, cheerio.

Please don't leave

 

[Santino]

Do you?

Seems to me you talk as though you're the only one who's listened to cis women and speak on their collective behalf when telling off other guys. But cis women are on the whole more accepting of trans people then men, and the opinion of women is not in any way united around the perspective you're putting forward.

I've not suggested any of those things.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Do you know enough to confidently tell women who should and shouldn't be allowed to compete in their teams?

Is there any particular part of your post you want a response to?

what i can tell you is that the current spate of bans are NOT evidence based, do not use relevant research and apnder to old white cisgender heterosexual men , they also open the way to marginalise golobal majority cisgender female athletes as we have seen wit the discussion and debate about various african cis women athletes and whether they are intersex / hidden men and should be subject to bans or chemical 'correction' of their ' manly ' testosterone levels ...

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Do you?

Seems to me you talk as though you're the only one who's listened to cis women and speak on their collective behalf when telling off other guys. But cis women are on the whole more accepting of trans people then men, and the opinion of women is not in any way united around the perspective you're putting forward.

I think there's two different things here isn't there. I doubt anyone posting here (and plenty of other places are much worse) is unfamiliar with the phenomenon of threads turning into testosterone fuelled shouting matches and that women can get crowded out. I think that's definitely worth bearing in mind in general when posting and while it obviously shouldn't reach any sort of 'no blokes' point, most of us could definitely do with having a bit of awareness.

The attempt to make this issue into a women v men debate where women are necessarily anti-trans is a totally different thing. It's an attempt to put trans women into the men camp, and shut up any trans-supportive men, and to just ignore trans-supportive CIS women altogether (and trans men don't appear to even feature at that level). Trying to use the first point to advance the second is massively snide and hypocritical IMO.

 

[Rob Ray]

I've not suggested any of those things.

I didn't say you suggested anything. I suggested you talk in that fashion. In fact what's happening here is an entire conversation in which not a single affected woman, afaik, is speaking and they are all being spoken for by people who are not (unless there's a high-flying sportsperson here I'm unaware of). So there's zero point in getting on any high houses about it as a guy talking to another guy, it's all non-participants with opinions.

 

[Santino]

I didn't say you suggested anything. I suggested you talk in that fashion. In fact what's happening here is an entire conversation in which not a single affected woman, afaik, is speaking and they are all being spoken for by people who are not. So there's zero point in getting on any high houses about it as a guy talking to another guy.

This particular exchange began because Danny decided that concern about women's sport is irrelevant and unimportant, so maybe address his attitude before you criticise me for pointing that out.

 

[Rob Ray]

This particular exchange began because Danny decided that concern about women's sport is irrelevant and unimportant, so maybe address his attitude before you criticise me for pointing that out.

Do you deny the numbers of people and circumstances involved regarding trans people in sport are absolutely minute? If not, then it is factual to say it's not of particular importance when talking about major social issues in women's sport. We've spent considerably less time talking about any number of things which affect sportswomen considerably more. Pay, for example. Or abusive coaches.

I'd be quite interested to hear an actual sportswoman talk on such things, defining what they care about changing, but apparently, according to I dunno, somebody or other, this is the topic.

 

[InArduisFouette]

This particular exchange began because Danny decided that concern about women's sport is irrelevant and unimportant, so maybe address his attitude before you criticise me for pointing that out.

No,

(typically) white (or that creepy type of assimilated we see from the Trevor Philips, Rishi SUnak and Kemi Badenoch of this world), (entirely)cisgender and (usually) hetersosexual men with wanker's remorse speaking over women is what is unimportant.

when people wheel out SHaron Davies etc in ths sports debate there;s a whole other level of wilful ignorance on both their behalf and Davies' own behalf combined with the fact that until Davies became a TERF he public awareness really was waning ( and there is a theory circulatioing aobut the monment that 'peaked' Davies' that i've yet to see absolutely confirmed but is entirely plausible given her level of entitlement and ' don;t you know who i am ' behaviour , before even considering her documented Gender Affirming Surgeries and the like ( interesting JKR and E Musk are also noted to have Gender Affirming Surgeries)