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Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

Callie said:
We are discussing the sport issue right now so it might be nice to hear santinos thoughts on the matter (or those who he represents?). Will you be clear Santino if any comments are your thoughts Vs represented thoughts? Or do the two align?
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I'm sorry, I can't parse this.

What are you asking me?

As for representing anyone, I don't want to do that. I have just pointed out a possible reason why some women might not get involved in these discussions. (And that has caused enough grief as it is.)
 
[
Santino said:
I'm sorry, I can't parse this.

What are you asking me?

As for representing anyone, I don't want to do that. I have just pointed out a possible reason why some women might not get involved in these discussions. (And that has caused enough grief as it is.)
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The sport issue for transgender people, what are your thoughts on how to be inclusive and allow trans folk to be involved?

I believe you have concerns for cis women in sport having to compete with trans women potentially so what are your thoughts on resolving that issue? I'm sure you wouldn't want trans women to be totally excluded so interested to hear if you have any suggestions for a solution.

How do you feel about sports reassessing the competition criteria to something relevant where all can be involved while removing the issues that you feel cis women face? It should be possible I think?
 
Callie said:
[
The sport issue for transgender people, what are your thoughts on how to be inclusive and allow trans folk to be involved?

I believe you have concerns for cis women in sport having to compete with trans women potentially so what are your thoughts on resolving that issue? I'm sure you wouldn't want trans women to be totally excluded so interested to hear if you have any suggestions for a solution.

How do you feel about sports reassessing the competition criteria to something relevant where all can be involved while removing the issues that you feel cis women face? It should be possible I think?
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I suppose my starting point is that it's not for me to tell women how to manage their sports. If women overwhelmingly voted (not necessarily literally 'voted', but you know what I mean) to make their sports open to anyone who wants to join, then that's their decision. Equally if they voted overwhelmingly to keep all sports at every level female-only. If that's not everyone's starting point then I don't know how it ever gets resolved.
 
Santino said:
I suppose my starting point is that it's not for me to tell women how to manage their sports. If women overwhelmingly voted (not necessarily literally 'voted', but you know what I mean) to make their sports open to anyone who wants to join, then that's their decision. Equally if they voted overwhelmingly to keep all sports at every level female-only. If that's not everyone's starting point then I don't know how it ever gets resolved.
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So you don't think there could be something fundamentally wrong with using gender to segregate sports (mens or womens) when other factors might actually be better to allow safer competition?

Who is in charge of the decision making process for women's sports when it comes to this voting/'voting' about opening the sport to anyone who wants to join?
 
Callie said:
Tangent so sorry but I have always wondered why P.E. at school wasn't taught in ability tiered classes. Not sure if that has ever changed. Tiered classes was the case for the majority of other subjects. I loathed PE to my core. I may have enjoyed and participated more if I wasn't in the same class as the school athletes and got to compete or interact with others at a similar level.
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how do you ability tier across PE as a whole?

there is also an argument around introducing peopel to new activities ( how many lads would you get to do a contemporary dance class if there wasn;t a degree of compulsion in PE / expressive arts timetable slots ) , but yes for many people being stuck in the unpopular positions on the football/ rugby / hockey field and getting bored while the stars play ther own game is pretty soul destroying ...
 
Santino said:
I'm sorry, I can't parse this.

What are you asking me?

As for representing anyone, I don't want to do that. I have just pointed out a possible reason why some women might not get involved in these discussions. (And that has caused enough grief as it is.)
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oh dear , does Santiuno realise that they are about to get outed as a misogynistic transphobe if they actually express their own opinion.

especially as when it comes to the perofrmance 'advantages' of trans women in sport , proerly conducted evidence fails to demonstrate advantage and points strongly to some sports favour characteristics putting a transgender woman at a disadvantage ...

facts don;t care aobut transphobe's feelings
 
Santino said:
I suppose my starting point is that it's not for me to tell women how to manage their sports. If women overwhelmingly voted (not necessarily literally 'voted', but you know what I mean) to make their sports open to anyone who wants to join, then that's their decision. Equally if they voted overwhelmingly to keep all sports at every level female-only. If that's not everyone's starting point then I don't know how it ever gets resolved.
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what is a female ?
what is a woman ?

what is the evidence base not to follow the actual law of the land ( inclusion first, blanket bans are automatically unlawful) ?
 
Callie said:
So you don't think there could be something fundamentally wrong with using gender to segregate sports (mens or womens) when other factors might actually be better to allow safer competition?

Who is in charge of the decision making process for women's sports when it comes to this voting/'voting' about opening the sport to anyone who wants to join?
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Surely gender separation in sport is the most obvious way. Otherwise only men would ever be in the elite sports teams. Death of womens' sports right there.
 
And yet since trans women were allowed to compete in the Olympics in 2004, just one has done so.

Women's sport at the highest level appears to be flourishing across multiple codes right now, and that's with trans folks being able to play - because like almost literally everyone else, only a tiny percentage of people are good enough to make it as a professional, and when you're talking about an even more fractional percentage of women in trans women, the numbers shrink to almost impossibly small.

It's such a weird fixation that the dryest midget in right wing bullshit Ben Shapiro had his stupid film company make up a movie about men competing as women, because there's not a single example of someone adopting a trans identity simply to access women's sports they can point to.

Oh but Lia Thomas, what about Laurel Hubbard. They were trans people who loved to compete in sport before they came out, transitioning shouldn't bar you from doing something you love - be it swimming, weightlifting or playing football, or even a parkrun.

This "it's the death of women's sports" only holds up if you ignore women's sport and it's roaring successes in so many fields in the last few years.

As a friend said, the people who are often loudest about saving women's sports from trans folks are often those who dont give a single fuck about any other aspects of women's sport apart from excluding trans folks.
 
Balbi said:
This "it's the death of women's sports" only holds up if you ignore women's sport and it's roaring successes in so many fields in the last few years.
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Really?

Team sports where women have been really successful such as football, rugby, cricket, hockey - what would have happened if there was no gender separation in sport? Do you really think that women would have had a look in? How many women would have been in the national squads?
 
ElizabethofYork said:
Surely gender separation in sport is the most obvious way. Otherwise only men would ever be in the elite sports teams. Death of womens' sports right there.
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1984 Olympics 470 class sailing ...

funny how the results of that event managed ot find another Medal for sailing for the 1988 games to protect men's fragile egos
 
Balbi said:
Just checking here you mean trans women and trans men and not that thing where trans women means people assigned female at birth who have transitioned to be men and trans men means assigned male at birth who have transitioned to be women.
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when playing that weasel worded game the typical pattern is to use the term ' trans identified <AGAB> ' rather than accepted legal and clinical description of transgender <lived gender>

also interesting to note that said poster has been quiet of C Foster's exploits in the 1984 Olympics 470 Class event ...
 
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Balbi said:
Oh you do not want to see what the freaks in the anti trans movement say about non-white athletes, especially black and Asian ones.

The last Olympics was awful enough with the way they treated Laurel Hubbard but the Chinese track teams got heavily transvestigated because how can they be women and look like that (being incredibly lean, fit, athletes)
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Two words: Caster Semenya.

I think I've mentioned Barbara Banda as well. She's a Zambian footballer who scored a hat trick against Germany, one of the bigger women's teams, and TERFs accused her of being a man and cheating. Even though she was declared 'female' enough to play.
 
Callie said:
So you don't think there could be something fundamentally wrong with using gender to segregate sports (mens or womens) when other factors might actually be better to allow safer competition?

Who is in charge of the decision making process for women's sports when it comes to this voting/'voting' about opening the sport to anyone who wants to join?
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By definition if there is a better way of segregating sports than by sex/gender, then that would be good. But I don't know what that better way would be.

One of the issues is that if you segregate by some proxy for physical capability, then you will nearly always be relegating women to a category that is by definition not the top one. So even at an elite level the best a woman would be able to achieve is, e.g. fastest woman in one of the lower-rated leagues, not the fastest woman in the world. (Men's boxing is a useful example here. I'm no expert, but I have at least heard of some of the boxers in the heavyweight class; I've not heard of any in the lighter classes. So you'd probably be limiting women to lower prize money, sponsorship and recognition.)

Another aspect - and this is really where I'll probably bow out to avoid speaking 'for' women - is that at a non-elite level, some women's sports exist partly just as something women can do by themselves, without any men being involved. So you'd have to think about the consequences of eliminating segregation by sex/gender across the board, or at what point you would introduce it (and on what justification).
 
Santino said:
By definition if there is a better way of segregating sports than by sex/gender, then that would be good. But I don't know what that better way would be.

One of the issues is that if you segregate by some proxy for physical capability, then you will nearly always be relegating women to a category that is by definition not the top one. So even at an elite level the best a woman would be able to achieve is, e.g. fastest woman in one of the lower-rated leagues, not the fastest woman in the world. (Men's boxing is a useful example here. I'm no expert, but I have at least heard of some of the boxers in the heavyweight class; I've not heard of any in the lighter classes. So you'd probably be limiting women to lower prize money, sponsorship and recognition.)

Another aspect - and this is really where I'll probably bow out to avoid speaking 'for' women - is that at a non-elite level, some women's sports exist partly just as something women can do by themselves, without any men being involved. So you'd have to think about the consequences of eliminating segregation by sex/gender across the board, or at what point you would introduce it (and on what justification).
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why is every dog in a 5 mile radius of a Urban reader's computer going crazy at the minute ... must be the dog whistles
 
ElizabethofYork said:
Really?

Team sports where women have been really successful such as football, rugby, cricket, hockey - what would have happened if there was no gender separation in sport? Do you really think that women would have had a look in? How many women would have been in the national squads?
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Who can possibly know. Pretty much every boy on the planet who is able to will be coerced into playing football at some point and if he turns out to be exceptional then he's quite likely to be picked up with potentially vast rewards if he succeeds as a professional. Who knows what might happen if the same applied to girls - football especially is one sport where the differences within a gender - a nippy centre foward vs a giant full back - may be as great as the differences between the sexes. Perhaps there are women out there who could compete at professional level against men if the platforms were genuinely level.

I agree that gender segregation makes sense in a lot of sports, especially at elite level, for reasons of encouraging participation as well as fairness. But that also excludes a lot of people so perhaps more thought should be given to streaming by strength/weight/height especially in amateur sports which are suppoosedly played for fun. And why shouldn't women be able to compete against men if they think they are able to and want to? There has been quite a lot of feminist work done on re-imagining sports which seems to have fallen by the wayside now the debate has become dominated by those trying to keep trans people out.
 
smokedout said:
Who can possibly know. Pretty much every boy on the planet who is able to will be coerced into playing football at some point and if he turns out to be exceptional then he's quite likely to be picked up with potentially vast rewards if he succeeds as a professional. Who knows what might happen if the same applied to girls - football especially is one sport where the differences within a gender - a nippy centre foward vs a giant full back - may be as great as the differences between the sexes. Perhaps there are women out there who could compete at professional level against men if the platforms were genuinely level.

I agree that gender segregation makes sense in a lot of sports, especially at elite level, for reasons of encouraging participation as well as fairness. But that also excludes a lot of people so perhaps more thought should be given to streaming by strength/weight/height especially in amateur sports which are suppoosedly played for fun. And why shouldn't women be able to compete against men if they think they are able to and want to? There has been quite a lot of feminist work done on re-imagining sports which seems to have fallen by the wayside now the debate has become dominated by those trying to keep trans people out.
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Womens' sport has become so popular and so supported over the past few years, and girls now have sporting role models to look up to. It would be madness to change that.
 
ElizabethofYork said:
Womens' sport has become so popular and so supported over the past few years, and girls now have sporting role models to look up to. It would be madness to change that.
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and yet here you are trying to turn it into a weapon and to prevent women who you don;t like the look of , including Cisgender women from the global majority , from taking part...

it's funny how the concenr aobut women;s sports has only come about as a weapon to attack trans folx...

is it fair for Mack Beggs to compete in women's sport?
 
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