Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Raheem]

Boys prefer things with wheels, right, totally science!

View attachment 420029

I wonder if anything in those photos might run against gender stereotypes, and if so what that tells us?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Up until the beginning of the 20th Century, pink was generally seen as a colour for boys.

Didn't know that. She got a new phone the other month, she was swithering until she was told it was pink. She said she was sure that there is a note on her account saying 'Tell her it is pink'.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

There are essentialist and anti-essentialist forms of pro-trans argument, just as there are essentialist and anti-essentialist anti-trans arguments. I've linked to this article a few times now, but it is a useful explainer on that point:

This is where trans voices are vitally important. I grew up with this trans thing in me and it was there from before i can really fully remember. I vocalised it at around 6 years old, but i always knew it was wrong and i tried to hide it. It never went away despite everything i tried. so let's start there, right, as my example here is pretty typical.

It was never a choice!

 

[Epona]

This is where trans voices are vitally important. I grew up with this trans thing in me and it was there from before i can really fully remember. I vocalised it at around 6 years old, but i always knew it was wrong and i tried to hide it. It never went away despite everything i tried. so let's start there, right, as my example here is pretty typical.

It was never a choice!

Solidarity like

 

[Raheem]

thanks for confirming you are unable to engage in a discussion about a serious topic with any level of insight or wit...

Seriously.

Trans activists are sometimes characterised by the other side as being aggressive and demanding people believe in things that they find hard to believe in.

And here you are abusing someone on the internet because they take the radical and offensive position of "a bit cautious on the nature-nurture debate".

Please note, I am not trying to suggest that you therefore are what they say you are.

But you might want to think about whether it is a useful way to react to people. Up to you.

Please also not thar in typing this out I am thinking of your benefit not mine. You are entitled to find this patronising if you like.

Now, bye.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Seriously.

Trans activists are sometimes characterised by the other side as being aggressive and demanding people believe in things that they find hard to believe in.

And here you are abusing someone on the internet because they take the radical and offensive position of "a bit cautious on the nature-nurture debate".

Please note, I am not trying to suggest that you therefore are what they say you are.

But you might want to think about whether it is a useful way to react to people. Up to you.

Please also not thar in typing this out I am thinking of your benefit not mine. You are entitled to find this patronising if you like.

Now, bye.

oh look a post dripping in misogyny and seemingly made without any consideration of my educational, professional or lived experience background ...

yet Raheem believes they not the one embarassing themselves

 

[Cloo]

Cisgender, heterosexual woman who 'inherently' went for male-associated toys and TV programmes as a child here, BTW.

And no, I don't think the world would have tried to 'trans' me if I grew up like that these days, because trans-supportive people don't think that everyone non gender-conforming 'ought' to be trans. My non binary teen, before they came out as such, went through a phase of presenting in a very masc way but no one seemed to be jumping out of the woodwork to try to convince them or me and my husband that they were a trans boy.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Cisgender, heterosexual woman who 'inherently' went for male-associated toys and TV programmes as a child here, BTW.

And no, I don't think the world would have tried to 'trans' me if I grew up like that these days, because trans-supportive people don't think that everyone non gender-conforming 'ought' to be trans. My non binary teen, before they came out as such, went through a phase of presenting in a very masc way but no one seemed to be jumping out of the woodwork to try to convince them or me and my husband that they were a trans boy.

exactly , although there is a societal double standard where a tomboy or butch presenting AFAB person is seen as a choice and none threatening

 

[ElizabethofYork]

oh look a post dripping in misogyny and seemingly made without any consideration of my educational, professional or lived experience background ...

yet Raheem believes they not the one embarassing themselves

Where's the misogyny? I didn't see any.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Where's the misogyny? I didn't see any.

a post directed to a woman telling her that she absolutely doesn't know what she is talking aobut isn't misogynistic?

now what aobut if that woman also happpens to have a relevant primary qualifying degree, a role which involves governance oversight of that area of clinical practice AND lived experience of the condition ?

 

[krtek a houby]

But you might want to think about whether it is a useful way to react to people. Up to you.

How do you want trans people/activists/allies to react, given an often hostile environment?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

a post directed to a woman telling her that she absolutely doesn't know what she is talking aobut isn't misogynistic?

now what aobut if that woman also happpens to have a relevant primary qualifying degree, a role which involves governance oversight of that area of clinical practice AND lived experience of the condition ?

I don't see that as misogyny. It's not something that's just aimed at women. Men are often told they don't know what they're talking about, too.

Disagreeing with a woman isn't misogynistic, surely.

 

[Thora]

I think it's fairly obvious that the younger a child is, the less it's gender identity will have been formed by socialisation. We can't necessarily plot the development accurately, particularly in the early weeks and months of life. But no-one can really deny there is a process of going from less to more

And so, if gender differences are observed in babies, it is undiluted rubbish to claim this as evidence of behaviour formed by nurture. It might, on the other be suggestive of something present at birth. It would not be conclusive, of course. But we don't really have anything conclusive, which is why we should try not to reach a conclusion.

I think very few psychologists in the 21st century hold a belief purely in nature on the one hand or nurture on the other.

A baby choosing gendered toys after 9 or 12 months of being offered and expected to want gendered toys, of being handled differently, spoken to differently, dressed differently because of their sex, doesn't tell me anything about innateness.

 

[Raheem]

A baby choosing gendered toys after 9 or 12 months of being offered and expected to want gendered toys, of being handled differently, spoken to differently, dressed differently because of their sex, doesn't tell me anything about innateness.

I think it depends. As I've said above, I don't have a firm view on the science. But at least some of the studies have been done on very young children. I'm not sure precisely, but first few weeks perhaps.

Then you get into what was found when, what possible other explanations might there be etc. None of which I really know about. I just don't think there's anything to be gained from dismissing those sorts of findings out-of-hand.

 

[Thora]

I think it depends. As I've said above, I don't have a firm view on the science. But at least some of the studies have been done on very young children. I'm not sure precisely, but first few weeks perhaps.

A baby of a few weeks old - an immobile blob basically - demonstrates a preference for gendered toys?

 

[Raheem]

A baby of a few weeks old - an immobile blob basically - demonstrates a preference for gendered toys?

I think it's more on the level of a gendered difference in preference for different types of object, but yes.

Just to repeat, I am not promoting this as brilliant science. It may be, or it may be seriously flawed.

 

[Santino]

1. It seems entirely plausible (in the sense that it does not contradict logic or anything we know about biology and genetics) that there could be predispositions to certain behavioural differences between male and female infants which, in combination with many other factors, are expressed as a contributing factor in the determination of their preference to play with certain toys rather than others. If they exist, such predispositions would not necessarily be operative in every infant, but would be theoretically statistically detectable across a large enough number of them.

2. It may well be impossible to determine the truth or falsehood of (1), due to the nature of socialisation and other influences.

3. Neither the truth or falsehood of (1) tell us anything about whether boys or girls should or should not play with any particular kinds of toys.

 

[smokedout]

Yes, absolutism about either nature or nurture is doomed.

But I’m confused that the diehard anti-GC people are arguing against the kind of innatism which makes it easier to say things like “born into the wrong body”.

You're assuming it's a coherent and consistent ideology. The gender critical position on any subject is what makes trans people look bad. It doesn't matter that it contradicts other positions they hold. So trans women are trying to force lesbians to have sex with them, but also trying to turn all young lesbians into men. Or hormones turn people into lifelong medical patients racked by side effects with crumbling bones, but people on hormones are also going to take over women's sports. Or gender is a social construct consisting purely of stereotypes which trans people reinforce, but also men are so inherently violent that even a trans child raised as a girl since infancy who never went through male puberty is as inherently violent as a cis man.

 

[smokedout]

Just to repeat, I am not promoting this as brilliant science. It may be, or it may be seriously flawed.

It may even not exist. Pretty sure 9-24 months is the range in the literature at which gendered preferences have been identified.

 

[Cloo]

It says something that on seeing the date of Trans pride confirmed I'm feeling worried my teenager wants to go because of safety concerns. Something I wouldn't be concerned about if I had a kid going five years ago.

I'm sick of a minority fucking up the fabric of our society, and I don't mean trans people.

 

[Pickman's model]

1. It seems entirely plausible (in the sense that it does not contradict logic or anything we know about biology and genetics) that there could be predispositions to certain behavioural differences between male and female infants which, in combination with many other factors, are expressed as a contributing factor in the determination of their preference to play with certain toys rather than others. If they exist, such predispositions would not necessarily be operative in every infant, but would be theoretically statistically detectable across a large enough number of them.

2. It may well be impossible to determine the truth or falsehood of (1), due to the nature of socialisation and other influences.

3. Neither the truth or falsehood of (1) tell us anything about whether boys or girls should or should not play with any particular kinds of toys.

No one should plat with toys that normalise cops

 

[InArduisFouette]

It may even not exist. Pretty sure 9-24 months is the range in the literature at which gendered preferences have been identified.

which is related in part of the developing intellect and sense of self which is strongly informed by the behaviours , attitudes and role modelling of others ...

 

[InArduisFouette]

It says something that on seeing the date of Trans pride confirmed I'm feeling worried my teenager wants to go because of safety concerns. Something I wouldn't be concerned about if I had a kid going five years ago.

I'm sick of a minority fucking up the fabric of our society, and I don't mean trans people.

yep,

before long i really do think thje Fascists are going to try something really daft in a daft = coccurance responded to by the 999 services as an MTA event

 

[InArduisFouette]

I don't see that as misogyny. It's not something that's just aimed at women. Men are often told they don't know what they're talking about, too.

Disagreeing with a woman isn't misogynistic, surely.

when someone who is presumed to be male demans a woman it always comes froma position of misogyny, what is sad is the number of womens whose misogyny is so ingrained they can;t see it and even exercise it themselves becasue they consider it to be a norm

this is why a lot of cis het men are veery afaird of women who they percieve as masculine whether that is becasue they are lesbians,. trans or beacuse they have served in the military or work in a 999 setting

 

[rioted]

… even a trans child raised as a girl since infancy who never went through male puberty is as inherently violent as a cis man.

What puberty did they go through?

 

[InArduisFouette]

What puberty did they go through?

i think you are missing the point , Rioted was demonstrating the lies of transphobes

 

[smokedout]

What puberty did they go through?

Well not male puberty based on any of the changes that we know happen to adolescent boys. Or does the mystical essence of manhood mean it is still a male puberty despite not involving any of the descriptors we'd use to describe male puberty?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

It says something that on seeing the date of Trans pride confirmed I'm feeling worried my teenager wants to go because of safety concerns. Something I wouldn't be concerned about if I had a kid going five years ago.

I'm sick of a minority fucking up the fabric of our society, and I don't mean trans people.

trans pride last year recruited a huge number of stewards and some very unobtrusive queer security to help the event be safer: The event went well despite 2023 also being a terrible year for trans oppression in the media and on the streets. Stewards are already being recruited and different groups consulted eg the support for disabled people wasn't as inclusive as it could have been and organisers are paying disabled trans people to take take part in focus groups now so as to design better support

( I know that wasn't your main point but I thought it was worth stating).

 

[oryx]

I'm sick of a minority fucking up the fabric of our society, and I don't mean trans people.

This, and I wonder how we got to this stage bearing in mind that trans people are a tiny minority (around 0.2 - 0.5%, I believe).

What actually drives peoples like JK Rowling and Graham Linehan? Both were successful writers so don't need to solicit attention this way. It's as if, now, they want to define themselves by being anti-trans rather than successful writers. I mean, why?

 

[krtek a houby]

What puberty did they go through?

Hello there. Are you still gender critical these days?