Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Raheem]

(And I think most people and most scientists and those in the medical profession realise it's bullshit).

I think most people would approach that one with an open mind, but whatever.

 

[Ted Bunting]

Ah yes, women not too fond of them wheel things.

 

[Epona]

I think most people would approach that one with an open mind, but whatever.

An open mind as to whether a preference for plastic soldiers and guns or plastic dolls and dresses is somehow "hardwired" into our DNA?

If that is what you think then please please take a moment to consider what you are suggesting.

 

[Epona]

Ah yes, women not too fond of them wheel things.

Aye I've never liked those wheels, seems like technology is taking over and getting confusing, I'd better go home and pop out some babies and teach them to play with what society deems gender appropriate toys

 

[cesare]

Naughty Raheem

 

[Ted Bunting]

The only wheel women like to concern themselves with:

 

[Raheem]

An open mind as to whether a preference for plastic soldiers and guns or plastic dolls and dresses is somehow "hardwired" into our DNA?

If that is what you think then please please take a moment to consider what you are suggesting.

That's nothing close to what I said. There have been some studies suggesting some differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies when presented when presented with toys. These differences may, therefore be innate.

I don't have a full list of supposed differences, but I'd be as surprised as anyone if they went as far Barbie/He-Man preference.

I don't know enough to evaluate the quality of this science, but it's certainly not implausible, imo. We are born with quite a range of universal behaviours and it shouldn't be a shock if someone has discovered a new one.

 

[Epona]

That's nothing close to what I said. There have been some studies suggesting some differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies when presented when presented with toys. These differences may, therefore be innate.

I don't have a full list of supposed differences, but I'd be as surprised as anyone if they went as far Barbie/He-Man preference.

I don't know enough to evaluate the quality of this science, but it's certainly not implausible, imo. We are born with quite a range of universal behaviours and it shouldn't be a shock if someone has discovered a new one.

And I call utter bullshit at it being "innate" There is nothing in our DNA that accounts for genders having different play interests especially wrt to violent modern things like guns.
It is a cultural influence through and through.

 

[Thora]

That's nothing close to what I said. There have been some studies suggesting some differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies when presented when presented with toys. These differences may, therefore be innate.

I don't have a full list of supposed differences, but I'd be as surprised as anyone if they went as far Barbie/He-Man preference.

I don't know enough to evaluate the quality of this science, but it's certainly not implausible, imo. We are born with quite a range of universal behaviours and it shouldn't be a shock if someone has discovered a new one.

There are differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies who have been treated differently according to their sex since birth. That's suggesting nurture rather than nature.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think there is science behind that, although I don't know exactly how solid it is. Studies suggesting boys prefer toys with wheels and things like that.

the problem is that hetero-normative and cissexxist cultural infulence and programming is there from day 1

 

[InArduisFouette]

Ah yes, women not too fond of them wheel things.

the problem , as usual, is that the closer one is to being a cisgender, heterosexual , white, financially secure, man the less insight one has into oppression and the mechanisms of oppression

 

[InArduisFouette]

That's nothing close to what I said. There have been some studies suggesting some differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies when presented when presented with toys. These differences may, therefore be innate.

I don't have a full list of supposed differences, but I'd be as surprised as anyone if they went as far Barbie/He-Man preference.

I don't know enough to evaluate the quality of this science, but it's certainly not implausible, imo. We are born with quite a range of universal behaviours and it shouldn't be a shock if someone has discovered a new one.

your ignorance really is showing now ...

 

[Raheem]

your ignorance really is showing now ...

I think if that's all you have you should give it some time.

 

[Raheem]

There are differences in behaviour between groups of boy and girl babies who have been treated differently according to their sex since birth. That's suggesting nurture rather than nature.

I think it's fairly obvious that the younger a child is, the less it's gender identity will have been formed by socialisation. We can't necessarily plot the development accurately, particularly in the early weeks and months of life. But no-one can really deny there is a process of going from less to more

And so, if gender differences are observed in babies, it is undiluted rubbish to claim this as evidence of behaviour formed by nurture. It might, on the other be suggestive of something present at birth. It would not be conclusive, of course. But we don't really have anything conclusive, which is why we should try not to reach a conclusion.

I think very few psychologists in the 21st century hold a belief purely in nature on the one hand or nurture on the other.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think it's fairly obvious that the younger a child is, the less it's gender identity will have been formed by socialisation. We can't necessarily plot the development accurately, particularly in the early weeks and months of life. But no-one can really deny there is a process of going from less to more

And so, if gender differences are observed in babies, it is undiluted rubbish to claim this as evidence of behaviour formed by nurture. It might, on the other be suggestive of something present at birth. It would not be conclusive, of course. But we don't really have anything conclusive, which is why we should try not to reach a conclusion.

Gender Identity is not formed by socialisation - John Money 'proved' that with the mutilation and subsequent abuses in the Reimer case. (J Money is firmly in the transphobic camp)

you appear to be conflating Gender Identity, Gender epxression and Gender roles ( and therefore Stereotypes) in a manner most commonly seen in transphobes

please, stop embarassing yourself

 

[Raheem]

please, stop embarassing yourself

Please stop imagining it impresses anyone to deal in tepid insults. Swear, at least.

 

[Raheem]

you appear to be conflating Gender Identity, Gender epxression and Gender roles ( and therefore Stereotypes) in a manner most commonly seen in transphobes

I'm not conflating anything, because I have only talked about one thing - the possibility of gendered behaviour in infants. I"ve been explicit about not drawing any conclusions about that, and I haven't inferred anything about anything else.

 

[Silas Loom]

I think it's fairly obvious that the younger a child is, the less it's gender identity will have been formed by socialisation. We can't necessarily plot the development accurately, particularly in the early weeks and months of life. But no-one can really deny there is a process of going from less to more

And so, if gender differences are observed in babies, it is undiluted rubbish to claim this as evidence of behaviour formed by nurture. It might, on the other be suggestive of something present at birth. It would not be conclusive, of course. But we don't really have anything conclusive, which is why we should try not to reach a conclusion.

I think very few psychologists in the 21st century hold a belief purely in nature on the one hand or nurture on the other.

Yes, absolutism about either nature or nurture is doomed.

But I’m confused that the diehard anti-GC people are arguing against the kind of innatism which makes it easier to say things like “born into the wrong body”.

 

[Clair De Lune]

the problem is that hetero-normative and cissexxist cultural infulence and programming is there from day 1

Yup and even with parents who don't buy particularly gendered toys and clothes for their kids...extended family and friends often do. I didn't buy anything pink for my daughter but her nan ensured her wardrobe was stuffed with pink.

I had a fuck load of girly toys bought for me as a kid I barely played with, much preferring the tanks, cars, guns, robots and knives one of my family members thankfully bought for me.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I'm not conflating anything, because I have only talked about one thing - the possibility of gendered behaviour in infants. I"ve been explicit about not drawing any conclusions about that, and I haven't inferred anything about anything else.

you are embarrassing yourself again

you clearly are conflating

 

[InArduisFouette]

Yes, absolutism about either nature or nurture is doomed.

But I’m confused that the diehard anti-GC people are arguing against the kind of innatism which makes it easier to say things like “born into the wrong body”.

because the 'born in the wrong body' narrative is a vast over simplification of the experience of Gender Incongruence and Gender Dysphoria concocted, primarily by cisgender writers and editors speaking over trans voices, for the palatable reception of an ill informed Cisgender audience

 

[InArduisFouette]

Yup and even with parents who don't buy particularly gendered toys and clothes for their kids...extended family and friends often do. I didn't buy anything pink for my daughter but her nan ensured her wardrobe was stuffed with pink.

I had a fuck load of girly toys bought for me as a kid I barely played with, much preferring the tanks, cars, guns, robots and knives one of my family members thankfully bought for me.

exactly this

plus the influences from mother and baby groups , nursery and pre-school and once school age is reached schools ....

how often are girls told that they are being ' unladylike'

how often are boys told things like 'ballet is for poofs' depsite the fact the lads in ballet regardless of their sexuality are some of the fittest men you'll ever meet - how many other peopel can hold someone clear above their head and smile while doing it

 

[Silas Loom]

because the 'born in the wrong body' narrative is a vast over simplification of the experience of Gender Incongruence and Gender Dysphoria concocted, primarily by cisgender writers and editors speaking over trans voices, for the palatable reception of an ill informed Cisgender audience

Well, without that narrative, neutral audiences will be even less comfortable with irrevocable interventions performed on gender dysphoric teenagers.

 

[Raheem]

you are embarrassing yourself again

you clearly are conflating

If that's the level of the discussion you're interested in then ok. You smell a bit and you've got eggs coming out of your nose.

 

[Sasaferrato]

An open mind as to whether a preference for plastic soldiers and guns or plastic dolls and dresses is somehow "hardwired" into our DNA?

If that is what you think then please please take a moment to consider what you are suggesting.

As the father of a daughter who was speaking in sentences well before a year old, what was bought for her was chosen by her, and it was pink. She is 48 now, and still loves pink.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Well, without that narrative, neutral audiences will be even less comfortable with irrevocable interventions performed on gender dysphoric teenagers.

which interventions would those be ?

there are NO irreverisble interventions performed on individuals who are not adults or able to demonstrate full adult levles of mental capacity - although this is somewhat of an empty statement given the utter neglect of the care pathway that current runs many times slower then that required by the NHS constitition and/or Supported by International, evidence based, guidelines

 

[InArduisFouette]

If that's the level of the discussion you're interested in then ok. You smell a bit and you've got eggs coming out of your nose.

thanks for confirming you are unable to engage in a discussion about a serious topic with any level of insight or wit...

encouraging people to swear and other such baiting is deathly boring anda the tactics of someone who knows their only chance of 'success' is to paint the person posting from a position fo full familiarity with the evidence base and the the law asa spittle -flecked extremist loon.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Boys prefer things with wheels, right, totally science!

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, absolutism about either nature or nurture is doomed.

But I’m confused that the diehard anti-GC people are arguing against the kind of innatism which makes it easier to say things like “born into the wrong body”.

There are essentialist and anti-essentialist forms of pro-trans argument, just as there are essentialist and anti-essentialist anti-trans arguments. I've linked to this article a few times now, but it is a useful explainer on that point:

It’s easy to see why some explanations of trans people’s choices persist. The dominant narrative in society currently is that genders are a naturally occurring result of innate biological differences. It is assumed these probably came about through evolution, as sexist scientists retrospectively impose our current gender stereotypes on the past, in a Flintstones-style view of history, and conclude that male and female brains developed out of the “natural” roles that our reproductive organs are assumed to have landed us with. In fact gender is a far more recent human invention, but the oppression of women seemingly has to be justified somehow, whether by reference to God, science, or something else. This pop neuroscience can be used to give trans people legitimacy. If men and women really have man-brains and woman-brains, then it’s plausible we could have landed the wrong brain to go with our genitals somehow (or the wrong genitals to go with our brains, depending on your perspective). It seems easier to get a society already invested in gender essentialism to accept that we’ve just been put in the wrong box, than to get people to question everything they thought they knew about men and women. Arguing that the entire system is bullshit and needs to be torn down is a massive task and not going to get us any joy any time soon. It’s easy to see why some trans people prefer a narrative less threatening to the status quo, but this is not inherently part of being trans.


Still many ordinary trans people will talk about their transition in terms that recognise that gender is a role, not an innate quality, for example by talking about the time when they used to be a man or a woman. Exploring gender in the way that we do as trans people can often make its socially constructed nature more apparent to us, at the same time as living life as a trans person demonstrates the practical need to provide cis people with explanations for our choices which will get them off our backs.


A few parallels can be drawn to the gay rights movement. The claims to be “born this way” benefited the fight against homophobia within the existing narrative. Homosexuality was seen as a sin, which implicitly assumed a choice. Arguing that gay people can’t help being gay, and reinforcing this with the claim that it is strictly nature, not nurture, is a simpler step towards tolerance than trying to remove the negative associations with homosexuality. If being gay and trans are afflictions that can’t be helped, then it’s easier to argue that society has a responsibility to accommodate us. Of course without the existence of homophobia, choosing to be gay wouldn’t be a problem. It’s only in such a homophobic society that we so strongly associate the claim that it’s a choice with the view that it’s the wrong choice. Similarly arguing that trans people are born trans appears to be a more manageable path to acceptance, at the cost of supporting gender essentialist ideas.

 

[Epona]

As the father of a daughter who was speaking in sentences well before a year old, what was bought for her was chosen by her, and it was pink. She is 48 now, and still loves pink.

Up until the beginning of the 20th Century, pink was generally seen as a colour for boys.