Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[ElizabethofYork]

"Tommy".

is he a friend of yours?

 

[editor]

. As another poster said it has now reached the point where you have Facebook groups comparing him to Mandela.

Only those written by complete fucking morons whose opinions on anything can safely be disregarded.

 

[klang]

...and who is this 'The Left' you keep referring to?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I’m afraid on some issues he probably is correct or at least partly correct. In fact it would be pretty difficult to be consistently wrong on everything in exactly the same way as there is no such thing as someone who is always right. Try to see the world as it actually is.

Perhaps you can outline what these 'some' things he is probably correct about are?

 

[agricola]

Anyone know him in Scotland?, if he was a communist, he would surely have made comments, been on demo's,etc?

"Have you bought a Morning Star from this man?"

 

[Rsf]

Only those written by complete fucking morons whose opinions on anything can safely be disregarded.

Well if you want to go ahead and ignore them on everything and see how that goes... I suspect the politicians will all agree with you (with the exception of UKIP) until they realise that these people can vote too and there are now a lot more of them than there ever were before. I’ve heard the same arguments from some of the hardcore Lib Dem remainers in regard to Brexit as it happens. You know how it goes: “they’re all just morons, we know what’s best for everyone else, these working class people people are too stupid to understand what they voted for and got the answer wrong so their opinions should be ignored etc...”. I don’t see that working out very well in the long term but there you go.

 

[Edie]

Perhaps you can outline what these 'some' things he is probably correct about?

Well he’s correct that Sadiq Khan shouldn’t of described that woman’s tweet as hate speech for example.

 

[editor]

Well if you want to go ahead and ignore them on everything and see how that goes...

I remain very comfortable ignoring anyone who is so politically naive, ill informed and ignorant that they think there is any kind of meaningful comparison to be found between Robinson and Nelson Mandela. Facebook is full of all sorts of tiny fringe groups espousing all sorts of ludicrous theories, fads and fancies. I'm curious why you think this one is even worth mentioning. How many members does it have? Please enlighten me.

 

[ddraig]

Well he’s correct that Sadiq Khan shouldn’t of described that woman’s tweet as hate speech for example.

what woman and what tweet?

 

[Rsf]

"Have you bought a Morning Star from this man?"

Here’s a picture of 16 year old idealistic communist dankula he’s even still got his communist star tattoo. It’s not uncommon to have been far left in ones youth in Scotland, I was a committed member of the old SSP myself in my early 20’s before the split caused by the Tommy Sheridan liable triaI. I campaigned hard in the streets for socialism for many years and now reject the far left having seen where the mindset leads. I have no trouble believing dankula was the same as me once although I’m considerably older than him.

 

[ddraig]

How is tommeh "helping" that woman, in any way?

Rsf ?

 

[Edie]

what woman and what tweet?

Shazia Hobbs.

Have you actually watched any of his videos?

 

[Toast Rider]

Anyone know him in Scotland?, if he was a communist, he would surely have made comments, been on demo's,etc?

He's on record as wanted antifa banned, he even started a petition to that end

EDIT: I am incorrect about the latter

 

[Toast Rider]

I’m afraid on some issues he probably is correct or at least partly correct. In fact it would be pretty difficult to be consistently wrong on everything in exactly the same way as there is no such thing as someone who is always right. Try to see the world as it actually is.

Tommy is despised by the real far right and by the left. By far right I mean the fascist ethno-nationalists, the old BNP types who reject the liberal idea of individual rights and believe in collective or group rights (and thereby believe in collective guilt and collective responsibility) and define the nation by a racial identity. These types have far more in common with the far left than I think they realise though, they are both bigotted (by which I mean intolerant of others having different opinions to themselves) and believe in an extreme form of collectivism. I have heard that the real far right call Tommy a “race traitor” for example as he doesn’t agree with them defining “Britishness” by race. Tommy also said it was wrong of David Cameron to say multi culturalism had failed and that he regarded multi culturalism as a success with the one exception of Islamism which he said was incompatible with western democracy and human rights.

You might find Tommy to be a rather unpleasant character, I find some of the rhetoric pretty unpleasant myself, especially the rhetoric from the EDL which can be particularly nasty, but things are not as straight forward and clear cut as you seem to think.

I guess the main point I’m making though is while people like Shazia Hobbs continue to have their legitimate concerns ignored and while the left continue to try and silence them, and shutdown hustings and such like, people will continue to see this and see Tommy as a sort of martyr to a legitimate cause. As another poster said it has now reached the point where you have Facebook groups comparing him to Mandela. These feelings will continue to grow until all the issues that Tommy has taken up (including free speech and comedians being prosecuted for jokes) are openly acknowledged and fully debated (without harassment and attempts to silence from the far left) and dealt with by the authorities in a manner that is satisfactory to most people. Until then I expect the movement around tommy to continue to grow, it may even reach the stage of having some parliamentary support rather than just street protests.

Is this the "tommy is hated by libtards as well as fascists...so he must be doing something right!" argument?

Who has tried to shut down Shazia Hobbs? What hustings? Citations needed please.

He's an unpleasant character because he's a vessel for fascist interests.

 

[krtek a houby]

I've summarised your reply as it's a bit long

Try to see the world as it actually is...Tommy... By far right I mean the fascist ethno-nationalists...These types... the far left ... they are both bigotted ... the real far right ...Tommy ... Tommy also said ...Tommy... things are not as straight forward and clear cut as you seem to think...the left continue to try and silence them... Tommy .. the issues that Tommy has taken ..attempts to silence from the far left.. the movement around tommy ...

 

[Rsf]

He's on record as wanted antifa banned, he even started a petition to that end

Did he? Does he explain in the text of his petition why they should be banned? Can you post a link and the text of this petition. When I talk about the far left I mainly mean the Corbyn labour types and the SSP and SWP and such like, and when I say left I mean labour pre Corbyn the SNP, the Lib Dem’s, the Greens etc. I don’t really know anything about ANTIFA to be honest and have never met anyone in it.

 

[ddraig]

Shazia Hobbs.

Have you actually watched any of his videos?

Still no tweet?
Whose videos? Sadiq Khan?

 

[ddraig]

Did he? Does he explain in the text of his petition why they should be banned? Can you post a link and the text of this petition. When I talk about the far left I mainly mean the Corbyn labour types and the SSP and SWP and such like, and when I say left I mean labour pre Corbyn the SNP, the Lib Dem’s, the Greens etc. I don’t really know anything about ANTIFA to be honest and have never met anyone in it.

are you going to clarify your posts or just deflect with questions?

 

[krtek a houby]

Did he? Does he explain in the text of his petition why they should be banned? Can you post a link and the text of this petition. When I talk about the far left I mainly mean the Corbyn labour types and the SSP and SWP and such like, and when I say left I mean labour pre Corbyn the SNP, the Lib Dem’s, the Greens etc. I don’t really know anything about ANTIFA to be honest and have never met anyone in it.

New Labour, the Libs - these are hardly "left".

What's "Tommy" saying that's so agreeable to you?

 

[Edie]

Still no tweet?
Whose videos? Sadiq Khan?

Have you actually read any of the last two pages of this thread

 

[existentialist]

I thought you were done with this site beavis?

Look, the left isn't part of the life of the people behind the TR stuff in any way except as a lecturing teacher or careerist two faced wanker. The left as left simply doesn't exist apart from as something to kick against - historical mis-identification and so on aside. So demanding that 'the left' wave a magic wand and and somehow sort all of this out is nonsense - and you know it. And your patent dishonesty in this is part of why this gap between w/c people and the left has developed - people like you in their ear all the time saying yes, the left is your enemy, they have never done and never will do anything for you - despite the (idealised) conditions that the EDL and similar responses are an inchoate demand to return to - being substantially due to the actions of the historic left. You are poisoning the ground for any hopeful or useful future movement and you damn well know it.

Do you think he's actually that influential? I only have to read a few posts in P&P to be reminded of how exquisitely politically naive I am, but even I in my naivety can see only handwaving and boiler plate posturing in the post you quote, once you take out all the surplus verbiage...

 

[Ralph Llama]

It may be true that we haven't had one in this country, but the claim that this wasn't once the motivation of several generations of politicians and activists all across Europe and elsewhere, dragging hundreds of millions of predominently working class people behind them, is absurd. Whether they succeeded in 'abolishing market relations' is another matter, but it was certainly the aim.

But the era of socialist revolution, or whatever you want to call it, ended in 1989, with the idea of 'abolishing market relations' relegated to the margins of political discourse. Once this happened, the rise of the populist right, and the left's primary focus on the more manageable ideas of identity politics was inevitable. However unpalatable, the former clearly appears to have more relevance to many of the forgotten and dispossessed elements of the working class than a left that increasingly appears (or at least is easily presented as such) to represent nothing more than a shrill argument among middle class radicals.

Furthermore, while the age-old struggle between capital and labour goes on relentlessly, the idea of 'abolishing market relations' remains off the agenda for any foreseeable future, and the working class has little to put faith in even when it comes to the basics.

Need to give them something then. Or... we need to give ourselves something to have faith in, because the working classes are turning to fascism simply through lack of option.

 

[ddraig]

Have you actually read any of the last two pages of this thread

yes
you mention a tweet but don't link to it and ask if i've watched some videos so I asked who's videos

e2a, gone back 3 pages, no links to tweets and not clear whose videos you mean

 

[MightyTibberton]

Did anything happen with his appeal? That was last wednesday I thought - but I think it had reporting restrictions of its own on it because it's related to the trials he disrupted. The only thing I've seen was that he might now have been reported for other instances of contempt - but my source for that was a blog that can sometimes be a bit overexcited and I can't even find that now.

I suppose his appeal was heard and unless he was released we wouldn't hear anything...?

 

[butchersapron]

Did anything happen with his appeal? That was last wednesday I thought - but I think it had reporting restrictions of its own on it because it's related to the trials he disrupted. The only thing I've seen was that he might now have been reported for other instances of contempt - but my source for that was a blog that can sometimes be a bit overexcited and I can't even find that now.

I suppose his appeal was heard and unless he was released we wouldn't hear anything...?

They are to try and give a result by the end of the month.

 

[MightyTibberton]

Thank you.

I hope he converts to Islam while inside. It's not uncommon I believe. And it would be funny.

 

[klang]

(((islam)))

 

[Toast Rider]

Did he? Does he explain in the text of his petition why they should be banned? Can you post a link and the text of this petition. When I talk about the far left I mainly mean the Corbyn labour types and the SSP and SWP and such like, and when I say left I mean labour pre Corbyn the SNP, the Lib Dem’s, the Greens etc. I don’t really know anything about ANTIFA to be honest and have never met anyone in it.

I retract the claim he started the petition as I think i've mixed it up with someone else.

However he is on record as regarding antifa as thugs because...free speech

 

[MightyTibberton]

It was Count Dankula (now of UKIP) who started the petition but I'm sure you can find Robinson arguing for all sorts of crackdowns on free speech easily enough. Not least, of course, the free speech of Muslims. Even "Muslim hate preachers" should be allowed a platform if these "free speech absolutists" are what they say they are (which they aren't). They would defeat such speech in the Free Market Place of Ideas. If you're a student you should Invite ISIS to your university.

 

[Rsf]

are you going to clarify your posts or just deflect with questions?

Sorry I’m not trying to be obstructive. Someone said dankula wanted a group banned, since I know virtually nothing about this group other than they claim to be anti fascist I asked what reasons he gave for wanting them banned. I.e did he have a legitimate and logical reason for wanting them banned? Did he want them banned for criminal actions that they intend to commit or because he didn’t like their opinions? Everyone should be allowed to have their opinions but some groups go beyond that and should be banned.