The world would be a better place if women were calling the shots

[Corax]

This seems to be the ultimate excuse. Where men are violent, it's because they're genetically bastards. Where women are violent, it's because of the men.

Just seems a bit of a cop-out to me. Why not just accept that anyone can be a violent arsehole given the right conditions, whether they've got dangly bits or not.

 

[boohoo]

Hmm. Not sure about this at all. How do you quantify 'aggression' anyway? If anything I'd say there are certain manifestations of agression and anger which are more common in men than women, and vice versa. Violence need not involve one's fists. Opression need not involve violence.

yep. i agree to an extent. It's hard to say that aggression/violence doesn't create more of the same. so which came first the male or female agression - she nags, he simmers, she get frustrated and shouts, he gets angry back, she antagonised, he threatens. ( excuse spellings-i'm painting my nails -one of the reasons we haven't taken over the world)

 

[boohoo]

not having that, see my 'come back with your shield or on it' comment.

Of course we don't have much in the way of historically recorded matriarchal societies so its not always easy to say. People are people though. Theresa may is a total cunt- is her cuntitude qualitatively different from male toryism?

I think it is foolish to perceive criticisms of patriarchy as endorsments of a polar opposite matriarchal society. Its a binary choice question for a world that doesn't have enough numbers to grade the complexity.

wish I could write like you... you kind of say what I'm thinking in fancy words.

 

[IMR]

This seems to be the ultimate excuse. Where men are violent, it's because they're genetically bastards. Where women are violent, it's because of the men.

Just seems a bit of a cop-out to me. Why not just accept that anyone can be a violent arsehole given the right conditions, whether they've got dangly bits or not.

'Ultimate excuse', 'cop out' - that's you saying you disagree me. Well fair enough, but you're better off rebutting with counter-examples to build a persuasive pattern.

You mentioned more and more women being admitted to A&E in your hospital after getting into fights, about as many as men. So that's one example.

Here's a graph from the National Statistics website showing male and female rates for various crime types in 2006. 'Violence against the person' is obviously the relevant one here:

From here: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1661

 

[Corax]

'Ultimate excuse', 'cop out' - that's you saying you disagree me. Well fair enough, but you're better off rebutting with counter-examples to build a persuasive pattern.

Thanks for your condescension. Always an appealing quality that.

Here's a graph from the National Statistics website showing male and female rates for various crime types in 2006. 'Violence against the person' is obviously the relevant one here:

From here: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1661

There are numerous problems with data like that, including but not limited to: expectations of non-reporting based around gender stereotypes, police attitudes, and definitions of crimes.

I actually disagree with your first statement. Playing evidence tennis tends to be rather unproductive and just risks breaking google. In the context of this thread, it would just be a succession of graphs and excerpts until everyone got bored and went to look at the Naked thread instead.

 

[Pickman's model]

'Ultimate excuse', 'cop out' - that's you saying you disagree me. Well fair enough, but you're better off rebutting with counter-examples to build a persuasive pattern.

You mentioned more and more women being admitted to A&E in your hospital after getting into fights, about as many as men. So that's one example.

Here's a graph from the National Statistics website showing male and female rates for various crime types in 2006. 'Violence against the person' is obviously the relevant one here:

From here: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1661

i'd like to see you post a similar chart showing differences in altruism between men and women.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The reason that I say it's "apolitical" is that it implies that, instead of the actions of states and other organisations being a product of circumstance, the imperatives of the systems themselves and so on - you know, politics - that they're a result of personal decisions made according to the preferences of the famous people involved.

Of course, there's not really such a thing as an apolitical theory about politics. This has a political meaning too.

 

[DotCommunist]

They've often had good reason to say things like that. They don't want the Hill People or whoever invading their village and raping them.

Where you find hard women, you'll find ultra-violent men.

and with them both will be economic deprivation.

 

[IMR]

Thanks for your condescension. Always an appealing quality that.

Now don't start whining Corax. You started the ball rolling with talk of 'ultimate excuses' and 'cop outs'.

There are numerous problems with data like that, including but not limited to: expectations of non-reporting based around gender stereotypes, police attitudes, and definitions of crimes.

Ahhhh yessss, there's always a problem with the stats . . . when they undermine your position, that is.

 

[IMR]

and with them both will be economic deprivation.

You would expect resource competition to be an important factor for sure.

 

[DotCommunist]

You would expect resource competition to be an important factor for sure.

yeah, on that I should state that fighting the causes doesn't mean we can ignore or dismiss fights to combat the consequences.

Not that you were, I'm just saying because my posts might come off as 'shut up woman you'll be liberated when I am' old school left chauvinism.

 

[nick h.]

If you want proof that the average man is more aggressive than the average woman it's staring you in the face. Isn't it bleeding obvious that male posters are typically more confrontational and competitive than females? Men are more inclined to win, women are more inclined to cooperate. No wonder female urbs don't find this place conducive to discussions of feminism. I'm flouncing off to somewhere calmer.

 

[Corax]

Ahhhh yessss, there's always a problem with the stats . . . when they undermine your position, that is.

You're welcome to accept pretty graphs on face value if you like.

 

[IMR]

yeah, on that I should state that fighting the causes doesn't mean we can ignore or dismiss fights to combat the consequences.

Not that you were, I'm just saying because my posts might come off as 'shut up woman you'll be liberated when I am' old school left chauvinism.

I didn't see that in your posts. Mind you, I'm like one of those nasty old men in the public library reading books about Japanese war crimes.

 

[IMR]

You're welcome to accept pretty graphs on face value if you like.

British Crime Survey vs your hospital account. Which will be statistically more robust?

How about homicide rates? What do you predict the male:female ratio will be for killers? I think it's around 8:1. But that's based on something I read a few years ago now. You have the opportunity to rebut my argument with a Recent Fact.

 

[Corax]

If you want proof that the average man is more aggressive than the average woman it's staring you in the face. Isn't it bleeding obvious that male posters are typically more confrontational and competitive than females? Men are more inclined to win, women are more inclined to cooperate. No wonder female urbs don't find this place conducive to discussions of feminism. I'm flouncing off to somewhere calmer.

I don't see that at all. And in any case, it's a funny kind of 'proof' given what's already been mentioned about social conditioning.

 

[DotCommunist]

If you want proof that the average man is more aggressive than the average woman it's staring you in the face. Isn't it bleeding obvious that male posters are typically more confrontational and competitive than females? Men are more inclined to win, women are more inclined to cooperate. No wonder female urbs don't find this place conducive to discussions of feminism. I'm flouncing off to somewhere calmer.

is this passive aggression?

 

[Bakunin]

British Crime Survey vs your hospital account. Which will be statistically more robust?

How about homicide rates? What do you predict the male:female ratio will be for killers? I think it's around 8:1. But that's based on something I read a few years ago now. You have the opportunity to rebut my argument with a Recent Fact.

The vast majority of serial killers are male, which is why the female ones tend to attract so much more attention as they're much rarer. Also, less than 2% of Death Row inmates in the USA are women and IIRC less than 10% of all Americans convicted of murder are women (although the USA defines murders differently the UK by using a system of degrees of murder which may skew the comparison).

 

[IMR]

The vast majority of serial killers are male, which is why the female ones tend to attract so much more attention as they're much rarer. Also, less than 2% of Death Row inmates in the USA are women and IIRC less than 10% of all Americans convicted of murder are women (although the USA defines murders differently the UK by using a system of degrees of murder which may skew the comparison).

Yes I have seen phrases like 'an order of magnitude' to describe the male:female ratios in the US. Have you read Daly and Wilson's classic book Homicide? I recall some stats in it from the US which gave the most common cause of murder as 'personal slight/perceived insult', and quite a big proportion of those involved some form of delayed action, often someone going away to find a weapon before launching the fatal attack. Does that sound right?

 

[LLETSA]

If we had a 50-50 balance between the sexes in high-level politics there would definitely be less war, if only because the women would get in the way of the men while saying things like 'Eek, eek, stobbit Kev, it's not worth it,' etc etc.

 

[LLETSA]

Of course there's always a chance that the women would lose it and whack somebody in the face with a stiletto at the UN.

 

[Corax]

I'm not sure there's any argument that, as a vast generalisation, men are more aggressive.

But I'm not at all convinced that it's because men are inherently violent. Two things initially spring to mind.

Firstly that violence by men is often more damaging due to differences in physique.

Far more importantly, the fact then men are conditioned from birth to 'stand up for themselves' etc. They are encouraged to 'be a man', and unfortunately 'being a man' is often perceived not as being mentally strong, showing control and restraint, attempting to empathise, and the other similar things that I'm trying to instil in the nipper as what a 'man' should be. Instead the message given out by individuals, by films, by other forms of media and often even by their teachers is that it's about not responding naturally to pain, and about fighting back when they're abused.

Men are expected to display these charcteristics, in the same way that women were/are expected to behave in a 'ladylike' way.

 

[Bakunin]

Yes I have seen phrases like 'an order of magnitude' to describe the male:female ratios in the US. Have you read Daly and Wilson's classic book Homicide? I recall some stats in it from the US which gave the most common cause of murder as 'personal slight/perceived insult', and quite a big proportion of those involved some form of delayed action, often someone going away to find a weapon before launching the fatal attack. Does that sound right?

I haven't read 'Homicide', but I'll certainly be looking for a copy.

It's amazing, really, the reasons for murder that some killers come out with as though they can justify what they've done. And it sometimes seems as though, the more insignificant the event that led them to commit the murder, the more fervently they hold to it as a perfectly sound reason for taking a life.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you want proof that the average man is more aggressive than the average woman it's staring you in the face. Isn't it bleeding obvious that male posters are typically more confrontational and competitive than females? Men are more inclined to win, women are more inclined to cooperate. No wonder female urbs don't find this place conducive to discussions of feminism. I'm flouncing off to somewhere calmer.

i think you mean you're flouncing to somewhere where your weak arguments meet the respect you believe they merit.

 

[Pickman's model]

If we had a 50-50 balance between the sexes in high-level politics there would definitely be less war, if only because the women would get in the way of the men while saying things like 'Eek, eek, stobbit Kev, it's not worth it,' etc etc.

no, this is another of those 'if ... then i think ...' rather than a proven thesis.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course there's always a chance that the women would lose it and whack somebody in the face with a stiletto at the UN.

yeh cos men would never take off a shoe and hit someone - or something - with it at the un.

e2a: oh - that nikita kruschev did it in the 1960s

 

[LLETSA]

On the ball as usual, Phil.

 

[Pickman's model]

On the ball as usual, Phil.

more than you are, you auld gobshite liar.

 

[weltweit]

About this aggression thing, women are in the UK military now, I think (correct me) that in the UK they are not yet in frontline army units but that will probably come in time. There is also now female boxing which was frowned on for years and in my local Judo club there is a healthy female membership.

However I think when a nation like Britain has a leader, be they man or woman, they first have a leader. Thatcher had the Faulklands war which she prosecuted, Blair had Iraq and Afghanistan did it make any difference that one of them was a man and the other a woman? I don't think so, the range of options available to them in each case was limited and in each case they decided on war!

 

[Pickman's model]

About this aggression thing, women are in the UK military now, I think (correct me) that in the UK they are not yet in frontline army units but that will probably come in time. There is also now female boxing which was frowned on for years and in my local Judo club there is a healthy female membership.

However I think when a nation like Britain has a leader, be they man or woman, they first have a leader. Thatcher had the Faulklands war which she prosecuted, Blair had Iraq and Afghanistan did it make any difference that one of them was a man and the other a woman? I don't think so, the range of options available to them in each case was limited and in each case they decided on war!

with blair you've forgotten iraq (1998), kosovo and sierra leone

the second thing is, what alternative do you think thatcher had? to go, i'm a nice peace-loving woman and the argentines can have the falklands? you're not comparing waging aggressive war (iraq 2003) with comparatively just wars (afghanistan and the falklands) in any meaningful way.