Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The Rational Proof of God's Existence

Status
Not open for further replies.

phildwyer

Plata o plomo
Banned
On several of the anti-Darwinist threads, I have been asked to back up my claim that God's existence can be demonstrated rationally. To my shame, I have only responded by referring my interlocuters to Kant, Hegel or Marx. This was necessary because my time is limited, and I thought it would be useful because I assumed that some people would already by familiar with these people's ideas. How wrong I was! As you might expect, this proof is rather complicated, which is why the common herd of religious believers must rest content with "faith." But, if anyone's genuinely interested, I can take you through it in such a way that you will not only understand, but be utterly and completely convinced by.

This will be a lengthy process. It will have to be taken step by step, and those steps will have to be little. I will make sure that I have established each of my points before moving on to the next stage of the argument. And of course I will have to pause periodically to kick away Gurrier, Nino Savatte and the rest of the pack of mangy curs who have nothing better to do than yap at my heels all day. Many on these boards are fanatical anti-theists, and convincing them will not be easy. But I shoulder the task with goodwill--someone has to do it--and it ought to be fun. The rational proof of God's existence begins with the definitive characteristic of human society: exchange. Yes, exchange. The exchange, say, of a cow for a lamb. This will eventually produce the commodity which, of which Karl Marx says:

"A commodity appears at first sight an extremely obvious, trivial thing. But its analysis brings out that it is a very strange thing, abounding in metaphysical subtleties and theological niceties."

He was not using the words "metaphysical" and "theological" figuratively. First, we need to agree that the exchange of a cow for a lamb involves the invention of a third factor: the concept of *value.* The *value* of the cow must be perceptible--although it is of course not a material thing--it must, I say, be *perceptible* in the *body* of the lamb. Is everyone with me so far?
Feel free to ask questions or to raise any objections at this stage, because we will not be retracing our steps as the argument progresses.
 
surely proof, or even a rational demonstration, is a denial of faith, and without faith your God is nothing?


edited to add: and i look forward to being utterly convinced. bring it on..
 
what a pretentious muppet you are.

will this prove the existance of the flying spaghetti monster or some other heathen deity?
 
Are you saying that exchange is necessarily the definitive characteristic of all human societies, or just that it is so under capitalism? What about Durkheim + Mauss's contention that the gift is prior to exchange as the archetypal social interaction?
 
Dubversion said:
surely proof, or even a rational demonstration, is a denial of faith, and without faith your God is nothing?


edited to add: and i look forward to being utterly convinced. bring it on..

Faith is what people who don't have the time or inclination to work through the rational proof must rely on. The rational proof is very complicated, and most people simply can't be bothered to follow it. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that *I* can be bothered, but I'll try to stick with it. I reckon I'll limit myself to one post a day on this thread though, or it will take over my entire life. So any objectors to what I've said so far have *one* day to raise their hands. No going back later on.
 
Fruitloop said:
Are you saying that exchange is necessarily the definitive characteristic of all human societies, or just that it is so under capitalism? What about Durkheim + Mauss's contention that the gift is prior to exchange as the archetypal social interaction?

I would subsume the gift under the category of exchange, on the grounds that even a gift is made in the expectation of receiving something (prestige, affection, gratitude) in exchange. I've already broken my own rule, but from now on I'll just let everyone's comments pile up each day, and answer them, and hopefully advance the argument further, in my *one* daily post on this thread.
 
What about the stuff before the 'exchange'?

Is 'value' the only possible mediating factor?

Are the first two factors qualitatively the same as the third factor?

Are you punning on agnus dei?

Isn't production 'the definitive characteristic of human society' - even according to Old man Marx himself. Not exchange?
 
yes it is.

cos value has to be produced, even the need for the lamb as opposed to the cow has to be socially produced.

The lamb and cow have to be "produced" ie domesticated, kept, fed and watered.
 
butchersapron said:
Isn't production 'the definitive characteristic of human society' - even according to Old man Marx himself. Not exchange?
It's an Engels quote, isn't it? Can't remember exactly how it goes. About we can distinguish humans from other creatures however we like, but humans themselves do so when we begin to produce.
 
Gift exchange and commodity exchange are not the same thing; in commodity exchange the product is alienated, whereas in gift exchange it is not. Additionally, non-reciprocity is an option (although a socially costly one) in gift exchanges, unlike commodity exchange.

This is without even going into examples of 'free' gift-giving.

Edit: BA hits the nail on the head re: production.
 
Meanwhile, on the subject of God...

Try and make sense of this:

the Guardian said:
Irma Plummer, the mayor's emergency coordinator, had tears in her eyes and her voice was breaking as she asked God to help Baton Rouge.

"You have reminded us of how strong you are and we yield and acknowledge that," Ms Plummer said, her eyes tightly shut.

"Right now, Father, we pray first for your protection and your grace which is unceasing and unfailing ... I don't even know what to ask for today, Lord. I don't even know what will beset us today."
 
i think it was saint-simon who got in there first with his 'science of production'.

Maybe if we exhanged the cow & lamb (which aren't commodities in themselves) for say a chair or a table which would better fulfill the category.
 
montevideo said:
i think it was saint-simon who got in there first with his 'science of production'.

Maybe if we exhanged the cow & lamb (which aren't commodities in themselves) for say a chair or a table which would better fulfill the category.

chairs and tables are not commodities in themselves either.
 
revol68 said:
chairs and tables are not commodities in themselves either.

didn't say they were but they would have to have some sort of human labour applied to them in order for them to become chairs & tables (unlike cows or lambs) hence fulfill the category better.
 
The lamb and cow have to be "produced" ie domesticated, kept, fed and watered.

surely the domesticating and keeping of lambs is as much a form of production as the shaping of wood into a table?
 
phildwyer said:
On several of the anti-Darwinist threads, I have been asked to back up my claim that God's existence can be demonstrated rationally. To my shame, I have only responded by referring my interlocuters to Kant, Hegel or Marx. This was necessary because my time is limited, and I thought it would be useful because I assumed that some people would already by familiar with these people's ideas. How wrong I was! As you might expect, this proof is rather complicated, which is why the common herd of religious believers must rest content with "faith." But, if anyone's genuinely interested, I can take you through it in such a way that you will not only understand, but be utterly and completely convinced by.

This will be a lengthy process. It will have to be taken step by step, and those steps will have to be little. I will make sure that I have established each of my points before moving on to the next stage of the argument. And of course I will have to pause periodically to kick away Gurrier, Nino Savatte and the rest of the pack of mangy curs who have nothing better to do than yap at my heels all day. Many on these boards are fanatical anti-theists, and convincing them will not be easy. But I shoulder the task with goodwill--someone has to do it--and it ought to be fun. The rational proof of God's existence begins with the definitive characteristic of human society: exchange. Yes, exchange. The exchange, say, of a cow for a lamb. This will eventually produce the commodity which, of which Karl Marx says:

"A commodity appears at first sight an extremely obvious, trivial thing. But its analysis brings out that it is a very strange thing, abounding in metaphysical subtleties and theological niceties."

He was not using the words "metaphysical" and "theological" figuratively. First, we need to agree that the exchange of a cow for a lamb involves the invention of a third factor: the concept of *value.* The *value* of the cow must be perceptible--although it is of course not a material thing--it must, I say, be *perceptible* in the *body* of the lamb. Is everyone with me so far?
Feel free to ask questions or to raise any objections at this stage, because we will not be retracing our steps as the argument progresses.
How does exchange even start to prove Gods existence? :confused:
 
It's purely designed to keep you hanging on for the next installment - like that shit 'Lost', which I have stopped watching...
 
But he does say:

"Feel free to ask questions or to raise any objections at this stage, because we will not be retracing our steps as the argument progresses."

which suggest that he will be dealing with our questions and objections before taking us upon his mighty shoulders for the next tiny step.
 
I find cows a bit creepy. Could you use another animal, a badger maybe? Cheers. So where were we? God has given badger's some intrinsic value that exists only when we humans try to trade the badger for some beans. Am I with you so far?
 
phildwyer said:
The *value* of the cow must be perceptible--although it is of course not a material thing--it must, I say, be *perceptible* in the *body* of the lamb.
The value of the cow is perceptible in the body of the lamb?

In any case, the value ascribed to an object isn't purely derivable from the object itself, or an object for which it is being exchanged, that would be silly. There is always going to be reference to factors outside of those objects, not least details of the actor ascribing value.
 
goldenecitrone said:
I find cows a bit creepy. Could you use another animal, a badger maybe? Cheers. So where were we? God has given badger's some intrinsic value that exists only when we humans try to trade the badger for some beans. Am I with you so far?
But what if I don't want a Badger? Or Beans? Does that mean god hates me?

My head hurts, it's all too much for my tiny mind.
 
phildwyer said:
The *value* of the cow must be perceptible--although it is of course not a material thing--it must, I say, be *perceptible* in the *body* of the lamb.
I agree the concept of value has to be introduced, but this doesn't prohibit this value from being described in material terms.

Why can't the value be materialistically deemed to be the sum of the wants of party A as a function of that party's perception (perception as in material, i.e. what can be observed/reasoned) of how much the commodity will fulfill those needs, all offset againt the sum of the wants of party B including their perception of how the commodity will fulfill their wants?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom