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The pope in hospital

On the one hand, he's a pope and everything that entails. The people who are offended that he's conservative and said/done Bad Things may well be offended by bears shitting in woods. The man is a Jesuit, and they don't do things by halves. Though they're usually quite disappointing when you consider they're the most educated of the clergy.

But he is also the most progressive pope since John XXIII (who might well be the most progressive pope ever). Entities like the Catholic Church do not change through revolution. They evolve slowly, and nothing you or I - particularly as non-Catholics (though I suppose I am on paper somewhere) - can say or do will change that. I think he's made some good first steps towards a slightly more enlightened church, and he's stacked the deck to promote further popes being likely to go along with his vision. In that respect, he's a good pope. But "good" is relative to all other popes.
 
Chz said:
On the one hand, he's a pope and everything that entails. The people who are offended that he's conservative and said/done Bad Things may well be offended by bears shitting in woods. The man is a Jesuit, and they don't do things by halves. Though they're usually quite disappointing when you consider they're the most educated of the clergy.

But he is also the most progressive pope since John XXIII (who might well be the most progressive pope ever). Entities like the Catholic Church do not change through revolution. They evolve slowly, and nothing you or I - particularly as non-Catholics (though I suppose I am on paper somewhere) - can say or do will change that. I think he's made some good first steps towards a slightly more enlightened church, and he's stacked the deck to promote further popes being likely to go along with his vision. In that respect, he's a good pope. But "good" is relative to all other popes.
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He reminds me of that Saudi cleric who gets lauded as a liberal in international circles because he refuses to call for gays to be killed.

I'm not offended by the way people like him support fascists. It's par for the course for the Catholic Church to support fascists. But I'm fucked if I'm going to call him or anyone like him 'good'. The way forward isn't for the Catholic Church to reform. It is for people to reject the authority of the Catholic Church. That's happening in places like Ireland and Argentina, where abortion has been legalised despite opposition from the Church. Who the Pope is and what he thinks is not relevant to such developments because those developments happen when people stop listening to the Church.

Next up the majority Muslim world and people to stop listening to Muslim clerics, whether or not they support murdering gay people.
 
Chz said:
On the one hand, he's a pope and everything that entails. The people who are offended that he's conservative and said/done Bad Things may well be offended by bears shitting in woods. The man is a Jesuit, and they don't do things by halves. Though they're usually quite disappointing when you consider they're the most educated of the clergy.

But he is also the most progressive pope since John XXIII (who might well be the most progressive pope ever). Entities like the Catholic Church do not change through revolution. They evolve slowly, and nothing you or I - particularly as non-Catholics (though I suppose I am on paper somewhere) - can say or do will change that. I think he's made some good first steps towards a slightly more enlightened church, and he's stacked the deck to promote further popes being likely to go along with his vision. In that respect, he's a good pope. But "good" is relative to all other popes.
Click to expand...

Yep, all very much relative - I remember when the pope said being gay isn't a crime and it was hailed as a big step forward, maybe it was in some ways but underlying it was the unchanged doctrine that gay people who actually have gay sex are sinners who will burn in hell for eternity.
 
Yossarian said:
Yep, all very much relative - I remember when the pope said being gay isn't a crime and it was hailed as a big step forward, maybe it was in some ways but underlying it was the unchanged doctrine that gay people who actually have gay sex are sinners who will burn in hell for eternity.
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The Protestant Taliban, the Free Church, have similar views.
 
bmd said:
Pope in a puffer, while we keep vigil?

sub-buzz-520-1679939494-9.jpg
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Mans not hot
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The two Jesuits he supposedly saved had previously been ordered by him to stop helping the poor. One of them went to his grave cursing Bergoglio, who had been implacably opposed to their kind of liberation theology.

It's not so surprising that the man who became Pope had been first and foremost concerned with maintaining the Church's authority - more anti-Communist than anti-Fascist. It's exactly that kind of thing that wins you promotion within the organisation.
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That's part of the two quoted articles.
He admits that he was too conservative as a younger man. And that he made mistakes. He spent months in therapy because of what happened and what he did.
But one of the two Jesuits cursed him and the other had stated that he helped him.

To be honest...I don't want to get into demonising or sanctifying a person. Francis has done a lot of good. He also has history in Argentina at a time when priests and religious were being slaughtered. I had a grandaunt in Argentina at that time. She was a nun who did a huge amount of work with the very poorest people. They had to escape because nuns were being murdered. It was not a safe place for anyone...especially nuns and religious.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
He reminds me of that Saudi cleric who gets lauded as a liberal in international circles because he refuses to call for gays to be killed.

I'm not offended by the way people like him support fascists. It's par for the course for the Catholic Church to support fascists. But I'm fucked if I'm going to call him or anyone like him 'good'. The way forward isn't for the Catholic Church to reform. It is for people to reject the authority of the Catholic Church. That's happening in places like Ireland and Argentina, where abortion has been legalised despite opposition from the Church. Who the Pope is and what he thinks is not relevant to such developments because those developments happen when people stop listening to the Church.

Next up the majority Muslim world and people to stop listening to Muslim clerics, whether or not they support murdering gay people.
Click to expand...
Honestly....you'll find that in Ireland people voted for gay marriage and abortion because the feeling was that people should be able to choose whatever they want to be and do for themselves. But you'd also see that many same people also go to mass because its a communith thing and there are plenty Catholics around who are not traditional conservatives and yet are not communists either. They just get on with their lives and help people who need help. It may be a little naive..but its how it is..outside of Dublin that is.
That's not to say there are no absolute cunts around though. But they are cunts besides whatever their faith.
 
Aladdin said:
Honestly....you'll find that in Ireland people voted for gay marriage and abortion because the feeling was that people should be able to choose whatever they want to be and do for themselves. But you'd also see that many same people also go to mass because its a communith thing and there are plenty Catholics around who are not traditional conservatives and yet are not communists either. They just get on with their lives and help people who need help. It may be a little naive..but its how it is..outside of Dublin that is.
That's not to say there are no absolute cunts around though. But they are cunts besides whatever their faith.
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That doesn't really change my point. They may still be Catholics but they're not doing what The Catholic Church tells them to do. The Church's authority has massively declined in many parts of the world, not least because of the paedo scandal.

There is a paedo scandal brewing for Islam next. Thousands of boys sexually abused by imams in religious schools in Pakistan. My hope is that it will do for Muslim clerical authority what it has done for Catholic priests. It doesn't require the entire population to cease to be Muslim for that to happen.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
That doesn't really change my point. They may still be Catholics but they're not doing what The Catholic Church tells them to do. The Church's authority has massively declined in many parts of the world, not least because of the paedo scandal.

There is a paedo scandal brewing for Islam next. Thousands of boys sexually abused by imams in religious schools in Pakistan. My hope is that it will do for Muslim clerical authority what it has done for Catholic priests. It doesn't require the entire population to cease to be Muslim for that to happen.
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I agree with you.
I would also add that here's a massive pedophelia problem everywhere. Wherever there are children and pedophiles there will be abuse. And pedophiles are not limited to any religion...or any group.
We have had reports of pedophiles working at the top of the St Johns ambulance charity (a voluntary ambulance service) that trained teenagers in first aid and got them involved in the voluntary ambulance service working at matches and events. Apparently one man was allegedly abusing teenagers for years. Again...people knew but were intimidated and afraid to say anything because he was a high profile person in the organisation.

I await the day the GAA gets investigated. Its such a huge sporting organisation. With volunteers helping out. Many are good people but its so big that there must be some pedophiles there. Law of averages etc.
 
SpookyFrank said:
Having an opinion on what might happen when everything has been decided in advance by some beardy cunt sat on a cloud is the thing that makes no sense.
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'Scripture must be fulfilled' is, I believe, Jesus's version of events. Therefore you'll need to ask him.
 
I'm in Rome right now. The place is jammed to the gunwales with Big Frank stuff.

And at home, the word on the street is that he eats in the staff canteen because he doesn't want to end up like John Paul I.

As for the Argentina stuff - yes he should have been braver. But that just means they would have killed him too.
 
Idris2002 said:
I'm in Rome right now. The place is jammed to the gunwales with Big Frank stuff.

And at home, the word on the street is that he eats in the staff canteen because he doesn't want to end up like John Paul I.
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I read a book about that once. Almost certainly moider
 
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