The most working-class anarchist group is...

[JoeBlack]

Nowhere have I said that I regard the Communist -run system as in any way 'libertarian socialist' and nowhere have I defended the regimes.

Err your being a little bit defensive here - not have I not accused you of either of these crimes I've actually posted twice that I accept you are not a defender of these regimes. And count this as a third time.

But the state capitalist label is useless in as much as it is used as a cover for various kinds of socialist and anti-capitalist, enabling them to avoid being implicated in the only significant non-capitalist experiment that has so far taken place.

To be fair I think if your part of a tendency that was denouncing what Lenin and the boys were up to by mid 1918 and which had spent the previous 50 years warning against such an experiment then you are not all that implicated in the experiment at all. This isn't the SWP your addressing here who waited for some 30+ years after the event to discover that russia was state capitalist.

On the other hand your right that opponents of socialism will still try and implicate you. And that you need a clarity as to why this is not the case that goes beyond whining 'no they were state capitalist'.

 

[LLETSA]

Err your being a little bit defensive here - not have I not accused you of either of these crimes I've actually posted twice that I accept you are not a defender of these regimes. And count this as a third time.

Okay. But when you said:

Its actually much more useful to have that argument seperated from a defence of the actual regime.

I thought that you might have been assuming I was.

 

[LLETSA]

To be fair I think if your part of a tendency that was denouncing what Lenin and the boys were up to by mid 1918 and which had spent the previous 50 years warning against such an experiment then you are not all that implicated in the experiment at all. This isn't the SWP your addressing here who waited for some 30+ years after the event to discover that russia was state capitalist.

On the other hand your right that opponents of socialism will still try and implicate you. And that you need a clarity as to why this is not the case that goes beyond whining 'no they were state capitalist'.

Exactly.

 

[JoeBlack]

Okay. But when you said

OK I can see why you read it that way - I was actually trying to say this discussion was more useful then arguing with a trot/stalinist.

 

[audiotech]

Care to elaborate on that one?

I'm waiting for 'a clarity' on your position of course.

 

[audiotech]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to read their site. It's perfectly understandable. You are even free to draw your own conclusions.

Workers councils it is then.

 

[LLETSA]

I'm waiting for 'a clarity' on your position of course.

Eh? What I was asking you to elaborate on was:

Capitalism is fucked from where I'm looking. The opposition is also fucked.

 

[audiotech]

Eh? What I was asking you to elaborate on was:

Capitalism is fucked from where I'm looking. The opposition is also fucked.

In it's present form, capitalism with all it's contradictions lumbers on until the next crisis. As boom turns to bust, it will be workers who will bear the brunt of this economic madness.

There is another possibility of course, whereby organised workers, both in the community and workplace, resist any attacks on them and unite politically to pose an alternative.

 

[montevideo]

In it's present form, capitalism with all it's contradictions lumbers on until the next crisis. As boom turns to bust, it will be workers who will bear the brunt of this economic madness.

There is another possibility of course, whereby organised workers, both in the community and workplace, resist any attacks on them and unite politically to pose an alternative.

just to clarify, organised being a euphemism for unionised? Or do you mean self-organised?

 

[LLETSA]

In it's present form, capitalism with all it's contradictions lumbers on until the next crisis. As boom turns to bust, it will be workers who will bear the brunt of this economic madness.

There is another possibility of course, whereby organised workers, both in the community and workplace, resist any attacks on them and unite politically to pose an alternative.

If capitalism is set to 'lumber on until its next crisis', and if 'workers will bear the brunt....', how does what you say in your second paragraph stand any chance of coming about if, as you say in one of your posts, 'the opposition to capitalism is fucked' as well? And if capitalism lumbers from one crisis to the next without ever encountering a decisive challenge, how is it, as you say, also 'fucked'?

 

[rednblack]

In it's present form, capitalism with all it's contradictions lumbers on until the next crisis. As boom turns to bust, it will be workers who will bear the brunt of this economic madness.

that is not a sign of capitalism being fucked, if it gets to lumber on in the same way for the next 500 years, how is it fucked? especially as it us bearing the brunt and not the capitalists. and given that capitalists who do suffer in general accept is as part of the natural order of things - i can't see them considering it to be fucked either.

capitalism is far from fucked globally - especially with china further opening it's markets, and affluence increasing in south america, eastern europe, and asia (bar the asian crisis and similar hiccups which should turn to boom once more following the boom and bust cycle)

 

[audiotech]

just to clarify, organised being a euphemism for unionised? Or do you mean self-organised?

Organised politically.

 

[audiotech]

If capitalism is set to 'lumber on until its next crisis', and if 'workers will bear the brunt....', how does what you say in your second paragraph stand any chance of coming about if, as you say in one of your posts, 'the opposition to capitalism is fucked' as well? And if capitalism lumbers from one crisis to the next without ever encountering a decisive challenge, how is it, as you say, also 'fucked'?

By 'fucked' I meant that capitalism cannot deliver even the most basic of needs to a large part of the world. Added to that is the environmental damage of unregulated market operations.

The opposition is as usual too busy fighting amongst itself to make any real impact at present. But I did say that there is another possibility, whereby organised workers, both in the community and workplace, resist any attacks on them and unite politically to pose an alternative.

 

[rednblack]

By 'fucked' I meant that capitalism cannot deliver even the most basic of needs to a large part of the world. Added to that is the environmental damage of unregulated market operations.

capitalism is not about providing for the world, it is surely about providng for capitalists while claiming to try it's best and provide for the world so that the rest of us remain supportive or at least not in open opposition??

 

[LLETSA]

The opposition is as usual too busy fighting amongst itself to make any real impact at present. But I did say that there is another possibility, whereby organised workers, both in the community and workplace, resist any attacks on them and unite politically to pose an alternative.

Something that is easier said than done when a majority of those who seek to do the organising, even if they don't refuse to recognise that the only example of an alternative that has so far existed is utterly discredited, continue to be infatuated with the organisational methods and rhetoric of those who created it.

And expecting total spontaneity on the part of the workers is also pie-in-the-sky.

 

[LLETSA]

By 'fucked' I meant that capitalism cannot deliver even the most basic of needs to a large part of the world. Added to that is the environmental damage of unregulated market operations.

The way things are looking at the moment this could run and run.

 

[audiotech]

Something that is easier said than done when a majority of those who seek to do the organising, even if they don't refuse to recognise that the only example of an alternative that has so far existed is utterly discredited, continue to be infatuated with the organisational methods and rhetoric of those who created it.

And expecting total spontaneity on the part of the workers is also pie-in-the-sky.

I didn't say it would be easy. However, there is the opportunity now to forge a left radical, political alternative to what has existed before. Rather than sitting back and bemoaning what is, I feel it would be more constructive to go out and actually engage in that alternative.

 

[montevideo]

Something that is easier said than done when a majority of those who seek to do the organising, even if they don't refuse to recognise that the only example of an alternative that has so far existed is utterly discredited, continue to be infatuated with the organisational methods and rhetoric of those who created it.

And expecting total spontaneity on the part of the workers is also pie-in-the-sky.

so the alternative to spontaneity on the part of the workers would be?

Compulsory organisation? Enforced organisation?

 

[audiotech]

capitalism is not about providing for the world, it is surely about providng for capitalists while claiming to try it's best and provide for the world so that the rest of us remain supportive or at least not in open opposition??

Capitalism is a system that produces and provides a world of plenty. It is the way that 'plenty' is distributed which is the problem.

 

[rednblack]

Capitalism is a system that produces and provides a world of plenty. It is the way that 'plenty' is distributed which is the problem.

which is what i said

 

[LLETSA]

so the alternative to spontaneity on the part of the workers would be?

Compulsory organisation? Enforced organisation?

Do you really believe that the only choice is between waiting forever for your spontaneous workers' uprising (or whatever) and compulsory or enforced organisation? Even Leninists don't actually try to force people into joining their organisations.

The alternative? Surely some combination consisting of organisations made up of working class people that do not consider themselves some kind of vanguard of the class but also aren't afraid to attempt to articulate working class interests and give a lead -and also give the best possible encouragement to those that do take action for themselves without looking first to outside organisations.

Notice how I said organisation(s). However I await your accusations of closet Leninism.

 

[rednblack]

The alternative? Surely some combination consisting of organisations made up of working class people that do not consider themselves some kind of vanguard of the class but also aren't afraid to attempt to articulate working class interests and give a lead -and also give the best possible encouragement to those that do take action for themselves, without looking first to outside organisations.

can't say i disagree with that! (what a surprise)

 

[LLETSA]

I didn't say it would be easy. However, there is the opportunity now to forge a left radical, political alternative to what has existed before. Rather than sitting back and bemoaning what is, I feel it would be more constructive to go out and actually engage in that alternative.

I never advocated 'sitting back and bemoaning what is.' What I questioned was the formulistic nature of your post. It was, at best, typical lefty-speak.

 

[montevideo]

Do you really believe that the only choice is between waiting forever for your spontaneous workers' uprising (or whatever) and compulsory or enforced organisation? Even Leninists don't actually try to force people into joining their organisations.

The alternative? Surely some combination consisting of organisations made up of working class people that do not consider themselves some kind of vanguard of the class but also aren't afraid to attempt to articulate working class interests and give a lead -and also give the best possible encouragement to those that do take action for themselves without looking first to outside organisations.

Notice how I said organisation(s). However I await your accusations of closet Leninism.

articulate working class interests and give a lead So individuals articulating working class interests & give a lead isn't vanguardism?

So what you're suggesting is these particular indivduals, who have taken it upon themselves to articulate the interests of a class because working class people are not as yet able to articulate their own interests themselves? They don't have the same insight as your articulaters or leaders of working class interest?

This is, of course, on the undertsanding these particular individuals know exactly what these class interests are, above & beyond everybody else?

You putting yourself up as one of these individuals who is attempting to articulate working class interest & give a lead?

History is littered with indiviudals trying to encourage, educate, articulate, lead, inspire The Working Class in their own best interests. Wouldn't call them closet leninist, would call them patronising fuckers.

 

[LLETSA]

articulate working class interests and give a lead So individuals articulating working class interests & give a lead isn't vanguardism?

Not when it is done in consultation with the people whose interests they are trying to further - and encouraging those people to take action for themselves.

Ask yourself this - I'm sure you're not so sectarian that you would claim that the IWCA in, say, Oxford, are not doing work that is of benefit to the local working class population? Nor that they are not doing their best to involve people who are not IWCA members? Now would any of that activity be taking place had the IWCA not got organised there in the first place?

 

[LLETSA]

So what you're suggesting is these particular indivduals, who have taken it upon themselves to articulate the interests of a class because working class people are not as yet able to articulate their own interests themselves? They don't have the same insight as your articulaters or leaders of working class interest?

No. As I say in my previous post, in the kind of example I am thinking of, the organisation consults people who are, in their own way, 'articulating their own interests themselves' when they respond. I am not saying that spontaneous organisation doesn't sometimes arise, but these examples are relatively rare.

There is nothing wrong with an organisation seeking to give some kind of lead as long as it does not place itself above the rest of the class and place the latters' interests behind those of the party.

 

[hibee]

...and place the latters' interests behind those of the party.

Or assume that the two are one and the same.

 

[montevideo]

Not when it is done in consultation with the people whose interests they are trying to further - and encouraging those people to take action for themselves.

Ask yourself this - I'm sure you're not so sectarian that you would claim that the IWCA in, say, Oxford, are not doing work that is of benefit to the local working class population? Nor that they are not doing their best to involve people who are not IWCA members? Now would any of that activity be taking place had the IWCA not got organised there in the first place?

Okay, the questions i would ask are these:

why does the iwca have to be a membership organisation? Regardless of their ulimate agenda, the iwca has already created a two-tier system; those inside the party & those outside. If it was a genuine association of working class people, promoting self-determination & more importantly non-reliance on others, be it the council, political parties (however they disguise themeselves, whatever their class composition) or local government agencies, then maybe you could consider that a starting point towards creating an 'alternative'.

Your last question's a strange one. Are you saying without the iwca in oxford, working class people wouldn't/couldn't get up off their arses & do something for themselves?

 

[LLETSA]

Your last question's a strange one. Are you saying without the iwca in oxford, working class people wouldn't/couldn't get up off their arses & do something for themselves?

Whether they would or not, the fact remains that the particular stuff that is going on there was initiated by the IWCA. What's more, they did it at a time when working class self-confidence is at an all-time low and in a political atmosphere when any kind of pro-working class politics is almost universally-held to be a non-starter.

Surely their example can only encourage any working class people considering 'getting up off their arses and doing something for themselves' to actually do so, rather than the reverse?

 

[LLETSA]

why does the iwca have to be a membership organisation? Regardless of their ulimate agenda, the iwca has already created a two-tier system; those inside the party & those outside. If it was a genuine association of working class people, promoting self-determination & more importantly non-reliance on others, be it the council, political parties (however they disguise themeselves, whatever their class composition) or local government agencies, then maybe you could consider that a starting point towards creating an 'alternative'.

Rather than being indignant that activity that is actually going in does not fit the ideological blueprint,perhaps you would be better approaching people who have voted for the IWCA in Oxford and asking them whther they mind that the IWCA organises in the way that it does.