The most working-class anarchist group is...

[charlie mowbray]

Call me a windbag if you want. None of those petit bourgeois scruples here!

And if you want a recap there's a post I put on only yesterday, in response to exactly the same demand from Monte. You can go back and read it and come back with another stunning 'warmed -up Leninism' jibe (without anything to back it up.)

I looked at yesterday's posts and I couldn't find anything from you saying what you actually stood for, only that the IWCA was the One True Way. So maybe just a little effort? Come on, sweetheart, you know you want to.

 

[LLETSA]

But don't you think there may be qualitative differences between here, and , say France. Do you know much about the state of either the Left or of anarchism there? And how about Eastern Europe- do you know much about what's goin on there?

And in France working class politics are in the ascendancy? There are differences between the situation there and in the UK, to be sure, but what you hear seems to mostly more of the same old same old.

As for Eastern Europe, it will take a very long time to repair the damage done to the name of any politics that have the working class interest at heart by the old ruling ideologies. For example, 'the masses' were on the streets in enormous numbers quite recently in Ukraine, were they not? Any enthusiasm for those they were there in support of? No, me neither. But I bet they dwarfed the crowds at any anarchist or left event.

 

[charlie mowbray]

I mean exactly what the words on the page say.

Anyway, I thought you were advising people to stay away from this thread.

It's Humpty Dumpty!!
And what happened to him?

 

[charlie mowbray]

And in France working class politics are in the ascendancy? There are differences between the situation there and in the UK, to be sure, but what you hear seems to mostly more of the same old same old.

As for Eastern Europe, it will take a very long time to repair the damage done to the name of any politics that have the working class interest at heart by the old ruling ideologies. For example, 'the masses' were on the streets in enormous numbers quite recently in Ukraine, were they not? Any enthusiasm for those they were there in support of? No, me neither. But I bet they dwarfed the crowds at any anarchist or left event.

What you hear? And what exactly do you hear? Please tell.

 

[LLETSA]

I looked at yesterday's posts and I couldn't find anything from you saying what you actually stood for, only that the IWCA was the One True Way. So maybe just a little effort? Come on, sweetheart, you know you want to.

I claim that the old ideologies are dead.

I say that I admire the IWCA for attempting to get the ball rolling by, uniquely as an organisation in this country, directly approaching working class people, wherever they are able to. I acknowledge that this is small beginnings, if relatively successful up to now.

Two and two. Together. Put. (Reassemble as you wish.)

 

[charlie mowbray]

A bit skeletal. Care to put any flesh on the bones?

 

[LLETSA]

Patience is my main virtue....

A bit skeletal. Care to put any flesh on the bones?

I'll say it again only more slowly (as they say....)

I see nothing to convince me that the old ideologies are not dead.

I look at the IWCA and like what I see because, in this climate of the historic defeat of those ideologies and the supposed irrelevance of working class politics, it is the only organisation in this country, as far as I can see, that is directly approaching working class people and winning support from significant numbers of them on policies designed to address working class interests. Intriguing, to say the least. What will develop out of all this I cannot say, and neither can you, but the the beginnings look healthy enough.

Now, having said that, why should I give you some Attica-style body of pie-in-the-sky theory?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

"The Manchester Evening News described them as anarchists.I expect them to check their facts"
It's in the paper, so it must be true.
Yeah, right.

Lighten up Charlie, I paraphrased that from Bill Murray in THE LIFE AQUATIC WITH STEVE ZISSOU.

 

[LLETSA]

So does your evasive behaviour mean that I too can say if your politics can't even stand up to a little probing, what do you expect them to do when faced with real opposition?

Oooh it is fun. You don't even need to say anything, and my posts don't have to connect in any way with your actual opinions! Brilliant. In fact, there is little/no need for you to write anything at all, as I can assume that I already know everything you think!

Time saving, if nothing else

What is evasive about what I say to charlie and Montevideo in response to their demands that I get theorising like a good 'un?

 

[charlie mowbray]

Sorry to be so slow and thick.
And you have the nerve to accuse others here of having no grasp of reality.
If people asked you to explain what you wanted "I'll say it more slowly" would go down like a lead balloon. On any estate or at work.
So yeah, you say you support the IWCA. Yeah, OK.
But just how do you think getting through to the working class means., what do you say. around what issues, with what goals in mind and where do you see this ultimately leading?
Go on, imagine you're out on the stump doing IWCA work. Try and convince me you're right.

 

[charlie mowbray]

Lighten up Charlie, I paraphrased that from Bill Murray in THE LIFE AQUATIC WITH STEVE ZISSOU.

Didn't see it. Don't really want to. So why should I know about a quote from a film that's only just come out?

 

[LLETSA]

Sorry to be so slow and thick.
And you have the nerve to accuse others here of having no grasp of reality.
If people asked you to explain what you wanted "I'll say it more slowly" would go down like a lead balloon. On any estate or at work.
So yeah, you say you support the IWCA. Yeah, OK.
But just how do you think getting through to the working class means., what do you say. around what issues, with what goals in mind and where do you see this ultimately leading?
Go on, imagine you're out on the stump doing IWCA work. Try and convince me you're right.

Never said you were either slow or thick.

Nor would I speak to people on estates or in a workplace in the same way as I do to leading members General Synod of the High Church of Anarchism. Surely you can take it after all these years. In the name of Makhno it's an internet forum, that's all.

Now, haven't I already said that I wouldn't like to speculate about the future of the IWCA? It's early days. Who knows what will happen in years to come? As for 'getting through to the working class', they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it in the areas where they are organised. Around issues that you can read about quite freely if you go to one of their web sites. Which does seem to rankle with certain anarchists....

 

[charlie mowbray]

And in France working class politics are in the ascendancy? There are differences between the situation there and in the UK, to be sure, but what you hear seems to mostly more of the same old same old.

As for Eastern Europe, it will take a very long time to repair the damage done to the name of any politics that have the working class interest at heart by the old ruling ideologies. For example, 'the masses' were on the streets in enormous numbers quite recently in Ukraine, were they not? Any enthusiasm for those they were there in support of? No, me neither. But I bet they dwarfed the crowds at any anarchist or left event.

At the last general election in 2002 in France the joint Trotskyist vote was over 10%. And look I'm a convinced anti-electoralist and think Leninism as an ideology is as dead as you do. But if you're thinking in terms of votes, and it looks like the IWCA does, then this is a bit more than the combined IWCA municipal vote isn't it?
On my own terrain, the French CNT (anarchosyndicalist union)has grown considerably over the last 3-4 years and is organising among workers not organised before.
Incidentally, do you think organising in the workplace is now a write-off or should as much effort be put into this as organising in the neighbourhood?

 

[charlie mowbray]

Never said you were either slow or thick.

Nor would I speak to people on estates or in a workplace in the same way as I do to leading members General Synod of the High Church of Anarchism. Surely you can take it after all these years. In the name of Makhno it's an internet forum, that's all.


And you said on another thread "The trouble with the left laid bare: the widespread assumption among its activists that the way they discuss things with each other is in any way representative of the outside world."
Shurely shome contradiction there?


Now, haven't I already said that I wouldn't like to speculate about the future of the IWCA? It's early days. Who knows what will happen in years to come? As for 'getting through to the working class', they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it in the areas where they are organised. Around issues that you can read about quite freely if you go to one of their web sites. Which does seem to rankle with certain anarchists....

Doesn't rankle with me. I've gone on record as saying that the IWCA have done some good work. Doesn't mean I can't criticise the electoralism bit ( but I spose that's dogma and dead ideology. eh?)
You're still being incredibly evasive. I don't really know what you actually think apart from being against dead ideologies.

 

[rednblack]

standing in elections is not the same as electoralism

 

[charlie mowbray]

Really?

 

[LLETSA]

At the last general election in 2002 in France the joint Trotskyist vote was over 10%. And look I'm a convinced anti-electoralist and think Leninism as an ideology is as dead as you do. But if you're thinking in terms of votes, and it looks like the IWCA does, then this is a bit more than the combined IWCA municipal vote isn't it?
On my own terrain, the French CNT (anarchosyndicalist union)has grown considerably over the last 3-4 years and is organising among workers not organised before.
Incidentally, do you think organising in the workplace is now a write-off or should as much effort be put into this as organising in the neighbourhood?

Got nothing against people organising in the workplace, of course, but the days of the giant employer have largely gone (big departments of white collar workers, are no substitute for the old large -scale blue collar workplaces.) Thousands of small employers, increasingly non-unionised, is the reality of today. It is no basis on which to relaunch a viable working class politics.

The Trotskyists in France might have got 10% of the vote but it was on the basis of a failed politics. Like their British counterparts, they have no significant ongoing presence in working class communities.

Can't comment on the anarcho-syndicalist union. Maybe you could enlighten me on its achievements (a sincere request.) But if you are going to compare either to the IWCA you would have to take into account the disparity in material resources and years of experience in what they are actually doing at the present moment.

 

[LLETSA]

Doesn't rankle with me. I've gone on record as saying that the IWCA have done some good work. Doesn't mean I can't criticise the electoralism bit ( but I spose that's dogma and dead ideology. eh?)
You're still being incredibly evasive. I don't really know what you actually think apart from being against dead ideologies.

Can you quote the bit where the IWCA says that elections are the be-all and end-all of their activity?

 

[charlie mowbray]

But there's still the post, transport (tube, buses, rail). Don't you think something viable cannot be organised there and don't you think it is still possible to oeganise amongst people never organised before the way the old IWW used to. French anarchosyndicalism in its early days organised as much in small workplaces as in large industries.

 

[charlie mowbray]

Can you quote the bit where the IWCA says that elections are the be-all and end-all of their activity?

No. I never said they said that. I just don't think electoral politics has anything to offer in terms of promoting genuine self-activity in our class.

 

[audiotech]

Sorry to be so slow and thick.
And you have the nerve to accuse others here of having no grasp of reality.
If people asked you to explain what you wanted "I'll say it more slowly" would go down like a lead balloon. On any estate or at work.
So yeah, you say you support the IWCA. Yeah, OK.
But just how do you think getting through to the working class means., what do you say. around what issues, with what goals in mind and where do you see this ultimately leading?
Go on, imagine you're out on the stump doing IWCA work. Try and convince me you're right.

He was in some sect (that he has never named - I wonder why?), which had wormed it's way into the Labour Party - entryist stylee. The 'great' Marxist 'tide' that some allegedly believed was 'sweeping' Britain during the 80's and 90's never materialised. Neither did capturing the 'commanding heights' of the economy, that ended up more entrenched than ever. LLETSA and others are rightly pissed off at this and look around for something 'different'. They find it - 'municipal socialism' (wasn't that something that had already experienced?). They don't actually join this 'new' political force, but rather send it a fiver now and then whilst they get on with their lives - work, family and posting sarcastic comments on an internet forum.

 

[charlie mowbray]

What, you mean Thoroughly Rotten Millie?
Right, I see. Now the tone makes a lot more sense. I had to suffer from some of these bods in the 60s through to the 90s. Thought that style was familiar.

 

[LLETSA]

He was in some sect (that he has never named - I wonder why?), which had wormed it's way into the Labour Party - entryist stylee. The 'great' Marxist 'tide' that some allegedly believed was 'sweeping' Britain during the 80's and 90's never materialised. Neither did capturing the 'commanding heights' of the economy, that ended up more entrenched than ever. LLETSA and others are rightly pissed off at this and look around for something 'different'. They find it - 'municipal socialism' (wasn't that something that had already experienced?). They don't actually join this 'new' political force, but rather send it a fiver now and then whilst they get on with their lives - work, family and posting sarcastic comments on an internet forum.

Nice to see representatives of both of the bankrupt ideologies of yesteryear embrace each other.

The sunset's thataway> (He says as both join hands and walk off into it.)

 

[charlie mowbray]

Hardly an embrace- although mebbe in your fevered imagination.

 

[LLETSA]

But there's still the post, transport (tube, buses, rail). Don't you think something viable cannot be organised there and don't you think it is still possible to oeganise amongst people never organised before the way the old IWW used to. French anarchosyndicalism in its early days organised as much in small workplaces as in large industries.

Where are the anarchists in modern-day Britain organising these people 'in the way the old IWW used to'?

As for French anarchosydicalism, that tells me hardly anything at all. They are allowed to have their 'early days' but the IWCA are to be condemned right from the off?

 

[charlie mowbray]

Anyway, back to my question. So you think organising in the workplace is only of marginal importance these days?

 

[hibee]

Got nothing against people organising in the workplace, of course, but the days of the giant employer have largely gone (big departments of white collar workers, are no substitute for the old large -scale blue collar workplaces.) Thousands of small employers, increasingly non-unionised, is the reality of today. It is no basis on which to relaunch a viable working class politics.

The change in my attitude to workplace-based activity has been one of the biggest shifts in my politics since I started looking for life beyond Leninism. I'm a shop steward and I was attracted to the SWP by it's supposedly pro-union rhetoric.

That proved a joke, of course, but while I take my role extremely seriously and work hard for those i represent, I've become all too aware of the limitations of that type of organisation. Most importantly, so many working class people never see the inside of a workplace like mine. I don't have the opportunity to speak up for people who are housebound, or unemployed, or work in non-union trades.

Industrial organisation will always be important. But one of the reasons I've become so interested in the IWCA (not that I'm a member, for reasons too boring to go into here) is that they realise the greatest opportunity for uniting the working class is in the community.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

He was in some sect (that he has never named - I wonder why?), which had wormed it's way into the Labour Party - entryist stylee. The 'great' Marxist 'tide' that some allegedly believed was 'sweeping' Britain during the 80's and 90's never materialised. Neither did capturing the 'commanding heights' of the economy, that ended up more entrenched than ever. LLETSA and others are rightly pissed off at this and look around for something 'different'. They find it - 'municipal socialism' (wasn't that something that had already experienced?). They don't actually join this 'new' political force, but rather send it a fiver now and then whilst they get on with their lives - work, family and posting sarcastic comments on an internet forum.

I think a short look at the IWCA site would completely dismiss the idea that it is about 'municipal socialism' .

 

[charlie mowbray]

In reply to hibee
Well I say the same thing myself, don't jump to conclusions that I'm an anarcho-syndicalist. Classic anarcho-syndicalism put too much emphasis on the workplace to the detriment of organising among other areas, including the neighbourhoods. ( although any examination of the Spanish CNT reveals that they organised a series of rent-strikes in Barcelona, not to mention the ongoing educational/cultural work they did via the ateneos and peoples' universities and night schools.)

 

[LLETSA]

He was in some sect (that he has never named - I wonder why?), which had wormed it's way into the Labour Party - entryist stylee. The 'great' Marxist 'tide' that some allegedly believed was 'sweeping' Britain during the 80's and 90's never materialised. Neither did capturing the 'commanding heights' of the economy, that ended up more entrenched than ever. LLETSA and others are rightly pissed off at this and look around for something 'different'. They find it - 'municipal socialism' (wasn't that something that had already experienced?). They don't actually join this 'new' political force, but rather send it a fiver now and then whilst they get on with their lives - work, family and posting sarcastic comments on an internet forum.

What's up with you anyway? Piles playing up today?

Never did I believe that 'a great Marxist tide' was sweeping even the pavement where we'd stand selling papers on Saturday mornings, let alone the rest of the country. While you lot were being cossetted by the Great Leaders with their 'downtur(d) theory', is this what they told you the rest of the left was saying? Not the bit that I was involved in (which I don't name; I wonder why....), whatever its faults; far from it. As for 'capturing the commanding heights of the economy,' I saw the writing on the wall for the old left as early as the defeat of the miners' strike. So far from being disappointed by its failure, I was not in the least bit surprised by the time its historic defeat was confirmed indisputably, 1989-91. Up until two or three years ago I could see no way forward for working class politics. Then I came acrossthe intriguing example of the IWCA, which I find much more convincing than any of the alternatives on offer. The fact that your understanding of the IWCA is as a re-run of municipal socialism says more about you than it does about them. Nothing mysterious about the fact that I haven't formally joined them - simply, they have no members where I live. If they did I'd apply to join. And over the past couple of years I have sent them considerably more than the odd fiver. Not that I have to justify anything to the likes of you.