The most working-class anarchist group is...

[montevideo]

Actually I thought he made his case very well.

Interesting that those with some affiliation with CW on here have done nothing but sneer or avoid his points ever since.

Why are his arguments 'bollocks' for those of us not 'in the loop' with CW?

okay:

GOSSIP (the lads down the pub said to me)

• the tiny number of non-politicos I've come across who had heard about Class War

• They knew nothing about what they were actually supposed to stand for

• They were amused by the comic book nature of their propaganda

• In fact I didn't meet a single non-politico who assumed that Class War was actually trying to be taken seriously

HEARSAY (this is what they meant when the lads down the pub said what they said):

• knew of the organisation only from stickers on a lamp post and the occasional graffiti that made already run-down areas look even worse

• in the same way that they might be amused by Viz

• they were, in my experience, viewed as a novelty act: sometimes mildly funny as long as they weren't on too long.

SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE WORKING CLASS (i know what they think & why they think it, all of them, as one):

• this reveals an understanding of the working class mentality that might have been displayed by an art school punk band circa 1977,

• a fundamental misunderstanding of the priorities of the average working class person

• I think you'll find that the average working class person will first of all consider what an individual has actually been put inside for

• Prisoners are bored shitless and of course if somebody starts circulating something like Class War around jails, its contrived irreverence towards authority will go down well with some

[this last point is also assumption & patronising as fuck so triple points]

ASSUMPTION what you are saying is this:

• What are you trying to say though? That having been inside somehow makes you more proletarian than anybody else?

• of course to self-styled anti-authoritarians all prisoners are victims

GENUINELY AMUSING BIT (how d'ya like them apples):

• is that the sound of empires falling? Oh no it's just next door's kids playing football in the passage.

Like i say, takes one hell of a post to fit so much in without saying anything concrete.

 

[rednblack]

Actually I thought he made his case very well.

Interesting that those with some affiliation with CW on here have done nothing but sneer or avoid his points ever since.

Why are his arguments 'bollocks' for those of us not 'in the loop' with CW?

it's not complete bollocks but neither is it post of the year

for a start the vast majority of CW members are working class - including attica
classwar the newspaper was the only political paper my workmates were interested in
classwar as far as i am aware does not send stuff to every prisoner who contacts them - i know of at least one they have rejected (he was inside for a racist murder) i doubt they would support crack dealers or nonces either
classwar members also support constructive community politics and some in hackney have helped hackney independent (ex iwca) with stuff

- as for the other stuff - classwar can defend themselves, i have no doubt that a lot of working class people do merely find them silly or amusing - but a fair few of us like it - and would at least be interested in taking on their ideas

 

[steeplejack]

okay:

GOSSIP (the lads down the pub said to me)

• the tiny number of non-politicos I've come across who had heard about Class War

• They knew nothing about what they were actually supposed to stand for

• They were amused by the comic book nature of their propaganda

• In fact I didn't meet a single non-politico who assumed that Class War was actually trying to be taken seriously

HEARSAY (this is what they meant when the lads down the pub said what they said):

• knew of the organisation only from stickers on a lamp post and the occasional graffiti that made already run-down areas look even worse

• in the same way that they might be amused by Viz

• they were, in my experience, viewed as a novelty act: sometimes mildly funny as long as they weren't on too long.

SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE WORKING CLASS (i know what they think & why they think it, all of them, as one):

• this reveals an understanding of the working class mentality that might have been displayed by an art school punk band circa 1977,

• a fundamental misunderstanding of the priorities of the average working class person

• I think you'll find that the average working class person will first of all consider what an individual has actually been put inside for

• Prisoners are bored shitless and of course if somebody starts circulating something like Class War around jails, its contrived irreverence towards authority will go down well with some

[this last point is also assumption & patronising as fuck so triple points]

ASSUMPTION what you are saying is this:

• What are you trying to say though? That having been inside somehow makes you more proletarian than anybody else?

• of course to self-styled anti-authoritarians all prisoners are victims

GENUINELY AMUSING BIT (how d'ya like them apples):

• is that the sound of empires falling? Oh no it's just next door's kids playing football in the passage.

Like i say, takes one hell of a post to fit so much in without saying anything concrete.

Gosh! Bullet Points! Actually attica made the remark and I'd be more interesting in hearing his or Pickman's views as they made/seconded the comments- not a self appointed 'representative' whom most anarchists don't seem to have any time for, anyway.

@ R&B- fair do's, thanks.

 

[montevideo]

Gosh! Bullet Points! Actually attica made the remark and I'd be more interesting in hearing his or Pickman's views as they made/seconded the comments- not a self appointed 'representative' whom most anarchists don't seem to have any time for, anyway.

@ R&B- fair do's, thanks.

ah a man (woman?) who knows what he knows.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

well, we now know what you say about 'the anarchists' we can take with a pinch of salt. Or maybe you want to give us some tell tale signs?

Burnage eh ? Used to drink in the Sun in September for a while.

Why don't you try answering the main point of the debate here rather than side tracking issues? What sort of anarchism do you support and what is its relevance for the working class?

My point is that the skateboarding , picnicing, let's build a den that we can call our base, gesture politics of that site and the Manchester Anarchists isn't relevant to the working class. I am not saying that it isn't fun and that people involved in it aren't earnest but I don't see a lot of it on the council estates in Burnage. If you are into all that sort of 'alternative' stuff defend it. If you are not tell us what sort of anarchism you are into, less of the man of mystery buisiness.

 

[montevideo]

Burnage eh ? Used to drink in the Sun in September for a while.

where my dad's funeral reception was.

 

[LLETSA]

okay:

GOSSIP (the lads down the pub said to me)

• the tiny number of non-politicos I've come across who had heard about Class War

• They knew nothing about what they were actually supposed to stand for

• They were amused by the comic book nature of their propaganda

• In fact I didn't meet a single non-politico who assumed that Class War was actually trying to be taken seriously

HEARSAY (this is what they meant when the lads down the pub said what they said):

• knew of the organisation only from stickers on a lamp post and the occasional graffiti that made already run-down areas look even worse

• in the same way that they might be amused by Viz

• they were, in my experience, viewed as a novelty act: sometimes mildly funny as long as they weren't on too long.

SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE WORKING CLASS (i know what they think & why they think it, all of them, as one):

• this reveals an understanding of the working class mentality that might have been displayed by an art school punk band circa 1977,

• a fundamental misunderstanding of the priorities of the average working class person

• I think you'll find that the average working class person will first of all consider what an individual has actually been put inside for

• Prisoners are bored shitless and of course if somebody starts circulating something like Class War around jails, its contrived irreverence towards authority will go down well with some

[this last point is also assumption & patronising as fuck so triple points]

ASSUMPTION what you are saying is this:

• What are you trying to say though? That having been inside somehow makes you more proletarian than anybody else?

• of course to self-styled anti-authoritarians all prisoners are victims

GENUINELY AMUSING BIT (how d'ya like them apples):

• is that the sound of empires falling? Oh no it's just next door's kids playing football in the passage.

Like i say, takes one hell of a post to fit so much in without saying anything concrete.

You quote from my post a line explaining that only a tiny number of non-political acquaintances of mine had actually heard of and commented to me on Class War and then claim that I am setting myself up as some sort of Voice of the Working Class. Doesn't add up really, does it?

How does trying to explain my own experience of something and my opinion on what that means with regard to working class attitudes amount to claiming to speak for the working class? Don't we all do that?

The supposed assumption I made about the CW (or Attica's) attitudes towards prisoners directly addressed exactly what was implied in his post, particularly in the line that prisoners reading CW amounted to 'a class composition that spits on you and yours' (whatever that means.) And have you never come across the libertarian idea that all crooks are somehow victims? It isn't an unfair assumption to make on the basis of what Attica wrote.

 

[LLETSA]

it's not complete bollocks but neither is it post of the year

for a start the vast majority of CW members are working class - including attica
classwar the newspaper was the only political paper my workmates were interested in
classwar as far as i am aware does not send stuff to every prisoner who contacts them - i know of at least one they have rejected (he was inside for a racist murder) i doubt they would support crack dealers or nonces either
classwar members also support constructive community politics and some in hackney have helped hackney independent (ex iwca) with stuff

- as for the other stuff - classwar can defend themselves, i have no doubt that a lot of working class people do merely find them silly or amusing - but a fair few of us like it - and would at least be interested in taking on their ideas

Nowhere did I say anything about the class composition of Class War. I too found that more workmates were interested in Class War than any other political paper. However, they tended to be the apoliticals. The more politically motivated - the works convenor, some of the shop stewards and a handful of others - were more interested in the Morning Star or SW. They were sometimes amused by CW - but again because of its irreverance. None of them really considered that the people producing it saw what they were doing as a serious way forward for the class. They seemed to regard it as a decent enough piss take of the powers-that-be and even of people like themselves and the left - but that was all.

I never assumed that CW members would be supportive of the kind of prisoners you refer to, but this is in no way made clear by Attica's post, nor do I remember that in reading CW this came over at all. I'm not saying they didn't make it clear, just that this is not what stands out for me in the general tone of the publication as I remember it. Incidentally, this was what I recall some of the people who read it remarking on, with comments like 'not all crooks are heroes' and so on. (Something that working class people are best placed to understand, as you will know.) This is what I mean by it being considered a laugh but no more. Even those with a low political consciousness could sense that the world is a lot more complex than what was portrayed. Actually, thinking about it, it's the non-politicals that probably grasp this best of all.

Finally, I didn't comment on what CW members actually do or don't do-of that I have little idea. What I was commenting on was my own experience of the way CW comes across to working class people. So, as Montevideo says elsewhere in the thread, please note that this is The Voice of the Working Class coming to you straight down the line....

 

[The Black Hand]

Gosh! Bullet Points! Actually attica made the remark and I'd be more interesting in hearing his or Pickman's views as they made/seconded the comments- not a self appointed 'representative' whom most anarchists don't seem to have any time for, anyway.

@ R&B- fair do's, thanks.

Monty is right in what he says above - I've just arrived back on line (some of us have lives....) Will formulate my 'official' reply to Letssas nothingness soon....

 

[swarthy thug]

Monty is right in what he says above - I've just arrived back on line (some of us have lives....) Will formulate my 'official' reply to Letssas nothingness soon....

Come on it only takes 3 seconds to say"bollucks"

 

[steeplejack]

(some of us have lives....)

fuck off you patronising cunt.

 

[LLETSA]

Monty is right in what he says above - I've just arrived back on line (some of us have lives....) Will formulate my 'official' reply to Letssas nothingness soon....

I'm not on line all that much but usually manage to 'formulate' my replies to you and other anarchists there and then.

Piece of piss really.

 

[swarthy thug]

Monty is right in what he says above - I've just arrived back on line (some of us have lives....) Will formulate my 'official' reply to Letssas nothingness soon....

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Monty is right in what he says above - I've just arrived back on line (some of us have lives....) Will formulate my 'official' reply to Letssas nothingness soon....

Been down the den have you?

 

[Pickman's model]

Finally, I didn't comment on what CW members actually do or don't do-of that I have little idea. What I was commenting on was my own experience of the way CW comes across to working class people. So, as Montevideo says elsewhere in the thread, please note that this is The Voice of the Working Class coming to you straight down the line....

translated: what lletsa was commenting on was something from fifteen years ago he thought he recalled.

 

[montevideo]

You quote from my post a line explaining that only a tiny number of non-political acquaintances of mine had actually heard of and commented to me on Class War and then claim that I am setting myself up as some sort of Voice of the Working Class. Doesn't add up really, does it?

How does trying to explain my own experience of something and my opinion on what that means with regard to working class attitudes amount to claiming to speak for the working class? Don't we all do that?

The supposed assumption I made about the CW (or Attica's) attitudes towards prisoners directly addressed exactly what was implied in his post, particularly in the line that prisoners reading CW amounted to 'a class composition that spits on you and yours' (whatever that means.) And have you never come across the libertarian idea that all crooks are somehow victims? It isn't an unfair assumption to make on the basis of what Attica wrote.

ok i'll put it another way:

* this reveals an understanding of the working class mentality that might have been displayed by an art school punk band circa 1977,

my question would be: what is 'the working class mentality'? Do we all have it, is it a universal thing all working class people have, how do we go about understanding it? You are expressing a universal truth about 'the working class mentality'.

* a fundamental misunderstanding of the priorities of the average working class person

my question would be: how do you know what the priorities of the average working class person is? That's 30 million people.

* I think you'll find that the average working class person will first of all consider what an individual has actually been put inside for

my question would be: how do you know what the average working class person would do? Who are you speaking on behalf of when you say 'you'll find the average working class person will first consider...'?

My point is this: nobody can speak on behalf of The Working Class, yet you do a pretty good job of telling all & sundry what the avergae working class person thinks, how they behave & what they would do in a particular circumstance, simply to reinforce your position. Now if you want to talk about the people you know & what they think (about class war, about whatever subject) do so, but don't presume that that is somehow presentative of The Working Class.

Essentially your approach is 'the lads i meet down the pub think class war is shit' (which i don't consider invalid) but it has fuck all to do with a political argument does it?
"Of course to self-styled anti-authoritarians all prisoners are victims" how do you know this? What evidence if any do you have to back up that anti-authoritarians (what all of them?) consider prisoners as victims.

I can't speak on behalf of attica, or class war for that matter, but i can pull you up on your bullshittery.

 

[LLETSA]

translated: what lletsa was commenting on was something from fifteen years ago he thought he recalled.

No no, something that I recall very well actually.

How about something detailing the benefits of the CW approach and its practical results in advancing working class politics so far etc.

Or have you got to have a meeting of the politbureau first?

 

[Pickman's model]

No no, something that I recall very well actually.

How about something detailing the benefits of the CW approach and its practical results in advancing working class politics so far etc.

Or have you got to have a meeting of the politbureau first?

what happened in 1990 which put you off anarchist politics for fifteen years?

 

[LLETSA]

what happened in 1990 which put you off anarchist politics for fifteen years?

1990 was the beginning of the period of the eclipse of both Leninism and social democracy. I had been gradually losing interest in the Trotskyist politics in which I had been involved for a while before for various reasons not uncommon to many of those whose lives it has for a time captured, but the denial, not only of my own group, that recent events necessitated a fundamental rethink was what finally prompted me to go and do other things. In short, I left them to it and went off and had a normal life.

It would at first glance be unfair to say that anarchism was also dragged down in their wake but on closer examination it doesn't apply; having never got off the ground in the first place (except for very brief experiments) it could suffer no defeat. It continues to be as irrelevant as it ever was.

 

[LLETSA]

ok i'll put it another way:

my question would be: what is 'the working class mentality'? Do we all have it, is it a universal thing all working class people have, how do we go about understanding it? You are expressing a universal truth about 'the working class mentality'.


my question would be: how do you know what the priorities of the average working class person is? That's 30 million people.

my question would be: how do you know what the average working class person would do? Who are you speaking on behalf of when you say 'you'll find the average working class person will first consider...'?

My point is this: nobody can speak on behalf of The Working Class, yet you do a pretty good job of telling all & sundry what the avergae working class person thinks, how they behave & what they would do in a particular circumstance, simply to reinforce your position. Now if you want to talk about the people you know & what they think (about class war, about whatever subject) do so, but don't presume that that is somehow presentative of The Working Class.

Essentially your approach is 'the lads i meet down the pub think class war is shit' (which i don't consider invalid) but it has fuck all to do with a political argument does it?
"Of course to self-styled anti-authoritarians all prisoners are victims" how do you know this? What evidence if any do you have to back up that anti-authoritarians (what all of them?) consider prisoners as victims.

I can't speak on behalf of attica, or class war for that matter, but i can pull you up on your bullshittery.

Oh for Jesus' sake - it isn't difficult to see what I mean by 'the priorities of the average working class person' and so on. Anybody other than those who view life through their ideological prism would understand. Ever thought about observing society instead of trying to interpret it with the aid of the sacred texts all the time? It seems from what you indicate on here that I spend more time with 'average' working class people than you do. As I've said before, I neither work with nor socialise with politicos, which gives you a better perspective on just how redundant the political ideologies of yesteryear are than if you do (cue some more cack abut how I'm setting myself up as some kind of Man of the People - anything other than make a convincing case for your own politics eh?) If socialist ideas, as they are widely understood, no longer have any real impact, can you imagine how anarchism is viewed? In truth it is not viewed at all. As others besides myself have also pointed out in this thread, it does not register with people outside the minute 'anarchist movement'.

No no no - 'the lads that I meet down the pub' don't think CW is shit at all - they have never heard of CW. A handful of people I once knew had - but, as I've said, that was fifteen or more years ago. It's amazing how many times you have to make a simple point to the same people on here but I'll do it again: I was not giving what I consider to be the definitive view on Class War; what I was doing was briefly detailing my own experience of the way that CW is viewed by people who are not involved in activist politics. Get over it. Seeing as the anarchists from other groups have declined to defend their politics, I was hoping for some political argument from the 'best-known anarchist group of all time'; all I've received is name calling (somehow dead working class that) and pedantic 'how do you know' twattery.

 

[Ryazan]

Another nomination is in order for that blinder of a post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seeing as the anarchists from other groups have declined to defend their politics, I was hoping for some political argument from the 'best-known anarchist group of all time'; all I've received is name calling (somehow dead working class that) and pedantic 'how do you know' twattery.

you don't seem interested in the politics - so where's the use in responding to you about them?

 

[LLETSA]

you don't seem interested in the politics - so where's the use in responding to you about them?

....

 

[Pickman's model]

....

exactly.

 

[montevideo]

Oh for Jesus' sake - it isn't difficult to see what I mean by 'the priorities of the average working class person' and so on. Anybody other than those who view life through their ideological prism would understand. Ever thought about observing society instead of trying to interpret it with the aid of the sacred texts all the time? It seems from what you indicate on here that I spend more time with 'average' working class people than you do. As I've said before, I neither work with nor socialise with politicos, which gives you a better perspective on just how redundant the political ideologies of yesteryear are than if you do (cue some more cack abut how I'm setting myself up as some kind of Man of the People - anything other than make a convincing case for your own politics eh?) If socialist ideas, as they are widely understood, no longer have any real impact, can you imagine how anarchism is viewed? In truth it is not viewed at all. As others besides myself have also pointed out in this thread, it does not register with people outside the minute 'anarchist movement' at all.

No no no - 'the lads that I meet down the pub' don't think CW is shit at all - they have never heard of CW. A handful of people I once knew had - but, as I've said, that was fifteen or more years ago. It's amazing how many times you have to make a simple point to the same people on here but I'll do it again: I was not giving what I consider to be the definitive view on Class War; what I was doing was briefly detailing my own experience of the way that CW is viewed by people who are not involved in activist politics. Get over it. Seeing as the anarchists from other groups have declined to defend their politics, I was hoping for some political argument from the 'best-known anarchist group of all time'; all I've received is name calling (somehow dead working class that) and pedantic 'how do you know' twattery.

but these are your words. "I think you'll find that the average working class person will first of all consider..." & i want to know how do you know this. If it's not difficult then explain yourself. I'm simply throwing your own words back at you. In fact you take out your generalisations (that reinforce your position) & you are actually saying very little. - a few non-politico's you've spoken to who have heard aabout class war think *this* about class war.

If you were hoping for some political argument then put some forward instead of your gossipy bullshit.

 

[Pickman's model]

lletsa

all you seem to be concerned about is publicity - not even propaganda.

to my mind, the iwca are better off with yr money and without you as a member.

 

[catch]

I neither work with nor socialise with politicos

If socialist ideas, as they are widely understood, no longer have any real impact, can you imagine how anarchism is viewed? In truth it is not viewed at all. As others besides myself have also pointed out in this thread, it does not register with people outside the minute 'anarchist movement'.

Then, as with Ryazan, how come it's registered with yerself?

Not all that interested in the positive, negative, or extent of image, anarchism (and especially the anarchist movement) has with 'normal working class people', I'm interested in the self-organisation of the working class, the majority, in order remove the economic and political power of the minority. Whether that's self-consciously anarchist or not is less important than it eventually leading to libertarian communism. However, I'm honest about my politics with people and always give people as much information as they want if they're interested.

The extent to which I'm an anarchist is the extent to which I think it's impossible to effectively achieve libertarian communism via representative democracy, this is to an extent ideological, but more accurately a practical assessment of how the state works in contemporary society. And because I identify with the philosophical legacy of Bakunin, Kropotkin and Bookchin, along with the self-organised elements of revolutions over the past 500 years, whether self-consciously anarchist or not. I have little or no identification with the subcultural elements of the anarchist movement as it exists in the UK (or US for that matter), nor to I have much contact with the movement apart from the AF in London and a few individuals.

Plenty of anarchists on here are very critical of large sections of the anarchist movement, something you and your mates conveniently forget. If Attica, Thumper Browne, Monte and Pickman's Model want to argue against (or in some cases reinforce) your strawman attacks on anarchism, then that's fine. Since I and many other anarchists on here have disagreed with Attica and Monte several times before, you can't expect me/us to jump in against you as some kind of homogenous ideological group in an us or them fight.

 

[The Black Hand]

From the Wife and kids thinktank

Letsa denied saying ‘stickers were a guide to action’, but your sentence construction here says it is or could be – You said “Class War was merely stickers on a lamp post or graffiti on a wall… Nobody outside your own circle ever took it seriously as any kind of guide to action”. Implying that we thought it was…

As for ‘average working class people’, it’s a figmant of a lazy imagination – such a déclassé construction doesn’t exist. I think the ‘multitude’ is better, or the ‘masses’, that implies many working class consciousnesses rather than the homogenous one implied by you. Monty ripped the piss out of you very well for your gossip about ‘the seriousness’ of Class War too. We go the whole hog, and don’t pull our punches in our popular propaganda…

You described ‘declasse’ individuals, and what ‘they thought’ about Class War, and ‘cos I know nothing about your class, I thought it was very apt to talk about prisoners having a better class composition than ‘you and yours’… And that still holds true. Every serious author describes prisoners as being virtually all of working class origin, and over 90% are inside for property crimes that can’t be divorced from capitalist social relationships. Rather than as in the philanthropic tradition that sees such people as victims, or like you, who, in a more conservative manner than Marx ever did, describes them as lumpen “violent and anti social”… We see prisoners as being working class with their own needs and interests, and of course we encourage progressive class consciousness (class for itself), rather than a reactionary one. The ‘average working class mentality’ you want to construct is merely ‘the class in itself’.

We are fundamentally different from Trots and you are so fundamentally similar, contrary to your weak stereotypical assertions. Your view of class consciousness is so orthodox it is embarrassing, you are ‘impressed’ with people liking Socialist Worker or the Morning Star. That view of class is from a long gone age ‘15 years ago’ or more, full employment/Fordism have long since gone. The proletarian factory based and homogenous definition of class with it, destined NEVER to return, and seeking to build the state structures of that age is a tactic that is not only questionable in its worth, but also it is a forlorn hope as those days HAVE gone for good.

You patronisingly refer to those ‘apoliticals’ who liked Class War, and compared them to the ‘politicals’ who didn’t. Class War was always aimed at those ‘apoliticals’ whose class consciousness could develop, we don’t see things as set in stone like lefties such as you. So your evidence in fact is in Class Wars favour. Your patronising definition of class and what you approve of politically is also more arrogant same old lefty rubbish, it is both de facto Leninist and elitist, that’s a tautology even though it is worth saying in this instance…

Try harder to step out of orthodoxy Leftism next time letsa, 1/10.

 

[The Black Hand]

I've already tried to tell people that;

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

 

[Chuck Wilson]

lletsa

all you seem to be concerned about is publicity - not even propaganda.

to my mind, the iwca are better off with yr money and without you as a member.

Is this a case of non players off the green pickman? Or are you choosing who can join the IWCA now?

What I love about the anarchists here is their fierce criticism, and in many cases well founded, of the trots but their inability to be critical of the thousand and one island varieties who call, themselves anarchists.

Personally I think you would be better off without the anarchists but small pool big fish?