The Labour Conference

[coley]

I don't see Iraq and Afghanistan as being inherently wrong, what was wrong was the failure, to accurately predict, what would happen when the fighting was over (yes, I know it is still ongoing).

The world is better place without Hussein, or should be. With hindsight, it might have been better to leave him in place.

Not saying it was wrong just the manner in which we got involved.

 

[ddraig]

I don't see Iraq and Afghanistan as being inherently wrong, what was wrong was the failure, to accurately predict, what would happen when the fighting was over (yes, I know it is still ongoing).

The world is better place without Hussein, or should be. With hindsight, it might have been better to leave him in place.

you can't even agree with yourself!

 

[Sasaferrato]

you can't even agree with yourself!

Och, I know. It's one of these situations where there is no 'right answer'. You do have the internal dichotomy 'Hussein was a murderous bastard, and should be toppled.' vs 'Look what we have unleashed by toppling Hussein'.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Remember who started the attack on benefits. Remember who started the attack on Civil Service pay. Remember whose lack of effective regulation of the banks, created this shit-storm in the first place. Remember who marched into the lobby alongside the Conservatives, to vote to maintain an overall welfare cap.

Labour certainly didn't start all this, that would be the tories.

Not really sure otherwise what you suggest people do.

 

[ddraig]

do you realise you are perpetuating the 2 party system? do you care?

 

[Quartz]

You still don't get how polls work or that only a small number of seats actually decide an election do you?

This is simply not true. Every vote in every seat counts. Different seats have differing probabilities of affecting the overall outcome. I mean, whoever thought Portillo would lose his seat?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Labour certainly didn't start all this, that would be the tories.

A little from column A and a little bit more from column B

Not really sure otherwise what you suggest people do.

It's already been repeatedly suggested to you but you think voting tories in to replace the tories means we won't have a tory government.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

This is simply not true. Every vote in every seat counts. Different seats have differing probabilities of affecting the overall outcome. I mean, whoever thought Portillo would lose his seat?

Oh yes it all counts. Your vote will really make such a difference.

 

[Quartz]

do you realise you are perpetuating the 2 party system? do you care?

The two-party state is due to our current First Past The Post electoral system. Get that changed correctly and we'll see multiple significant parties. The Lib Dems tried, but they were foolish in their choice of alternative system.

 

[coley]

You can't solve everything by taxing smokers!

Or delivering a speech without autocue. What would people prefer, a sound bitey speech delivered without autocue or a proper thought out speech delivered with! ?

I rather he just hadn't bothered.

 

[coley]

Uninspired face:

Jeez, if owt needs a warning it's this!

 

[butchersapron]

This is simply not true. Every vote in every seat counts. Different seats have differing probabilities of affecting the overall outcome. I mean, whoever thought Portillo would lose his seat?

Utter nonsense - 80%+ of seats are safe. The electoral reform society have estimated as few as 8000 votes in a handful of swing seats - from 30 000 000 voters - decide an elections outcome. Live outside of them then forget it. Stop spreading democratic myths. And stop being so naive.

 

[tony heath]

The electoral reform society have estimated as few as 8000 votes in a handful of swing seats - from 30 000 000 voters - decide an elections outcome.

Don't tell Shirley Porter

 

[Sasaferrato]

Don't tell Shirley Porter

<Spits!>

 

[Sasaferrato]

Labour certainly didn't start all this, that would be the tories.

Not really sure otherwise what you suggest people do.

Hallelujah! You have got my point exactly. Who is there to vote for?

 

[Looby]

Labour certainly didn't start all this, that would be the tories.

Not really sure otherwise what you suggest people do.

It was a labour government that cut 100k plus public sector jobs, putting those people on the dole queue and decimating public services.

It was a labour government that failed to keep to the promises regarding pay progression made in my department's 2007 pay deal and shafted public sector workers in many other departments.

It was a labour government that introduced tuition fees and student loans.

They are also responsible for academy schools.

I could go on.

I would do pretty much anything to get the Tories out including voting for labour if it would make a difference in my constituency but that doesn't mean I'll forget that those cunts paved the way for the Tories to fuck us all over.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Noone has denied these things, not has anyone potrayed labour as something it is not.

But do you not think that, had tht tories been in power, they would have done the same, likely worse as we are now seeing?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Hallelujah! You have got my point exactly. Who is there to vote for?

Tories or Labour. Either way one of the two will get in, so whom do you prefer?

 

[Looby]

Noone has denied these things, not has anyone potrayed labour as something it is not.

But do you not think that, had tht tories been in power, they would have done the same, likely worse as we are now seeing?

Of course but the labour government paved the way for what we're facing now and have done very little to oppose it.

If they had some backbone and a strong leader they might not have made themselves virtually unelectable this time. It's hopeless.

 

[J Ed]

patronising me doesn't change the fact that by you not doing anything come May you will be helping return a Tory government.

Don't you live in a Tory safe seat where it doesn't matter who you vote for?

It literally doesn't matter who I vote for in my Labour safe seat either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is simply not true. Every vote in every seat counts. Different seats have differing probabilities of affecting the overall outcome. I mean, whoever thought Portillo would lose his seat?

The spectrum over which the probabilities differ is broad, so a certain percentage of seats (a majority of them) are always "safe" for the ruling party and the opposition, in terms of having a large enough "cushion" of a majority to handle anything but a 50%+ swing, so the votes in such seats rarely count. The main reason UKIP is feared by the Tories, is because UKIP may stand in Tory Marginals where the cushion is thin, and draw votes from Tory voters.
As for Portillo, look at the psephology prior to the '97 election. A surprising number of pundits predicted either a narrow win for Portillo, or a loss of his seat, based on not only polls, but also on a pronounced trend to Labour in local election results.

 

[Quartz]

Hallelujah! You have got my point exactly. Who is there to vote for?

You might consider the Greens or UKIP...

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was a labour government that cut 100k plus public sector jobs, putting those people on the dole queue and decimating public services.

And in a spectacular own-goal, shedding people from the DWP so that the social security system ground to a halt for lack of staff - an own-goal repeated by the Tories.

It was a labour government that failed to keep to the promises regarding pay progression made in my department's 2007 pay deal and shafted public sector workers in many other departments.

It was a labour government that introduced tuition fees and student loans.

They are also responsible for academy schools.

I could go on.

I would do pretty much anything to get the Tories out including voting for labour if it would make a difference in my constituency but that doesn't mean I'll forget that those cunts paved the way for the Tories to fuck us all over.

Of course, we still say "Labour" as if it indicated a differentiation between red and blue policies, which it doesn't, since Blair (and arguably, since Kinnock).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course but the labour government paved the way for what we're facing now and have done very little to oppose it.

If they had some backbone and a strong leader they might not have made themselves virtually unelectable this time. It's hopeless.

As I've said many times over the last 10 years or more, on here and elsewhere, once Blair, Brown et al drank the neoliberal KoolAid (signified to me by their amendment of Clause Four from a statement of socialism to a wishy-washy "equality of opportunity" schtick), it was made impossible for any future Labour government to either possess or show any backbone - everything is subordinated to facilitating neoliberal economics.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You might consider the Greens or UKIP...

I also might consider cutting my head off, but I'm not likely to do that either.

 

[Sasaferrato]

As I've said many times over the last 10 years or more, on here and elsewhere, once Blair, Brown et al drank the neoliberal KoolAid (signified to me by their amendment of Clause Four from a statement of socialism to a wishy-washy "equality of opportunity" schtick), it was made impossible for any future Labour government to either possess or show any backbone - everything is subordinated to facilitating neoliberal economics.

Well, when you have someone like me, bemoaning the lack of a socialist party, you know things re pretty dire.