Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The Islamic state

phildwyer said:
I'm no fan of Erdogan, but he's doing the right thing here. It's not IS who've been blowing up Turkish shopping malls for the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

Just something for you to mull over.

"Evacuations were unlawful and violent. Security forces would surround a village using helicopters, armored vehicles, troops, and village guards, and burn stored produce, agricultural equipment, crops, orchards, forests, and livestock. They set fire to houses, often giving the inhabitants no opportunity to retrieve their possessions. During the course of such operations, security forces frequently abused and humiliated villagers, stole their property and cash, and ill-treated or tortured them before herding them onto the roads and away from their former homes. The operations were marked by scores of “disappearances” and extrajudicial executions. By the mid-1990s, more than 3,000 villages had been virtually wiped from the map, and, according to official figures, 378,335 Kurdish villagers had been displaced and left homeless."[20]

Now, your turn,how many Turkish civilian casualties have their been as a result of the PPKs actions? I absolutely hate terrorism and terrorists but I can't but help think this lot had some justification but seemingly you seem to think its ok for ISIS to finish what the Turkish govt started?
 
phildwyer said:
What's significant in that report is that the CHP (i.e. the Kemalist opposition) favors non-intervention.

In other words, there is no significant non-Kurdish body of opinion in Turkey which favors intervention to assist the Kurds. It's not even part of the debate.
Click to expand...
So, the kurdish population of Turkey (18%, I believe) has no say in the matter, gives the lie to Turkey's stance as a secular democracy, don't you think?
 
The kurds are going to set turkey ablaze - and the turkish state will be more than happy to help. Fuck ISIS - we'll show then what a real caliphate is.
 
butchersapron said:
The kurds are going to set turkey ablaze - and the turkish state will be more than happy to help. Fuck ISIS - we'll show then what a real caliphate is.
Click to expand...

Can you expand on that?
I can understand the bit about the Kurds setting Turkey"ablaze" though it will undermine the recent international support they have been receiving.
It's the "Turkish state will be more than happy to help" bit that puzzles me?
I can understand the state being more than happy if the indigenous Kurds give the state a reason to unleash violent reprisals, but they must be aware the world is becoming very aware that their 'good guy status' is becoming increasingly threadbare?
 
coley said:
Can you expand on that?
I can understand the bit about the Kurds setting Turkey"ablaze" though it will undermine the recent international support they have been receiving.
It's the "Turkish state will be more than happy to help" bit that puzzles me?
I can understand the state being more than happy if the indigenous Kurds give the state a reason to unleash violent reprisals, but they must be aware the world is becoming very aware that their 'good guy status' is becoming increasingly threadbare?
Click to expand...
Larger longer interests. Now the peace talks have been destroyed and shown to be a face both parties were tactically offering it's back to hands off fighting. A kurdish popular uprising will allow the turkish state to legitimate its past and future actions. No state cares if turkey is a good or bad boy in this scenario - just what happens inbetween and at the end. Is this stable for continued investment. Can any instability spread?
 
2014-10-07_816983689.png
 
This is from a piece two days ago that said kobane had fallen and gave many details of the fall. Given that it has not fallen - why don't you check the basic stuff before posting?
 
butchersapron said:
Larger longer interests. Now the peace talks have been destroyed and shown to be a face both parties were tactically offering it's back to hands off fighting. A kurdish popular uprising will allow the turkish state to legitimate its past and future actions. No state cares if turkey is a good or bad boy in this scenario - just what happens inbetween and at the end. Is this stable for continued investment. Can any instability spread?
Click to expand...

Whatever the outcome I think the media and hopefully the general public will look at the kurdish/Turkish insurgency in a whole new light, and yes, I think this instability will enter into Turkey both on the ground and into mainstream Turkish ethnic divisions, I think Turkish secularism will face a serious threat and there will, as a result, be the appearance of serious schisms in the Turkish body politic.
But this is for the future, I just hope those Kurds in Kobane manage to give the IS their first serious military reverse.
 
coley said:
Whatever the outcome I think the media and hopefully the general public will look at the kurdish/Turkish insurgency in a whole new light, and yes, I think this instability will enter into Turkey both on the ground and into mainstream Turkish ethnic divisions, I think Turkish secularism will face a serious threat and there will, as a result, be the appearance of serious schisms in the Turkish body politic.
But this is for the future, I just hope those Kurds in Kobane manage to give the IS their first serious military reverse.
Click to expand...
Media irrelevant - what did the media ever do for any aspect of kurdish struggle? Sweet FA - even for basic cultural rights. Nothing.

I think turkish securlaism isn#'t at stake here - the idea of a great powerful ottoman turkish state is. And it will brook no dissent. Esp from a national minority.
 
butchersapron said:
Media irrelevant - what did the media ever do for any aspect of kurdish struggle? Sweet FA - even for basic cultural rights. Nothing.

I think turkish securlaism isn#'t at stake here - the idea of a great powerful ottoman turkish state is. And it will brook no dissent. Esp from a national minority.
Click to expand...

Media irrelevant? possibly in days gone bye, but ISIS have made the the kurdish struggle a tasty news item.
Now,as for Turkish expansion into a new Ottoman Empire? Whey, I would think( have thought) there are many in Turkey who would put the brakes on that, but looking at Russia and the Ukraine? I would hedge me bets on what a sensible,newly emergent opposition can achieve, other than be marginalised/expatriated or poisoned by polonium?
 
coley said:
Media irrelevant? possibly in days gone bye, but ISIS have made the the kurdish struggle a tasty news item.
Now,as for Turkish expansion into a new Ottoman Empire? Whey, I would think( have thought) there are many in Turkey who would put the brakes on that, but looking at Russia and the Ukraine? I would hedge me bets on what a sensible,newly emergent opposition can achieve, other than be marginalised/expatriated or poisoned by polonium?
Click to expand...

They've brought it to the attention of some people who didn't already know. They've not changed the interests of those involved. Not even by 1%. And it won't change how they act by 1%. Hasn't this episode just shown exactly that to you?

I didn't mention ottoman expansionism - i was talking about internal legitimisation. Roads signs, bridges, monuments, new developments - all ottomanised.
 
coley said:
Just something for you to mull over.

"Evacuations were unlawful and violent. Security forces would surround a village using helicopters, armored vehicles, troops, and village guards, and burn stored produce, agricultural equipment, crops, orchards, forests, and livestock. They set fire to houses, often giving the inhabitants no opportunity to retrieve their possessions. During the course of such operations, security forces frequently abused and humiliated villagers, stole their property and cash, and ill-treated or tortured them before herding them onto the roads and away from their former homes. The operations were marked by scores of “disappearances” and extrajudicial executions. By the mid-1990s, more than 3,000 villages had been virtually wiped from the map, and, according to official figures, 378,335 Kurdish villagers had been displaced and left homeless."[20]

Now, your turn,how many Turkish civilian casualties have their been as a result of the PPKs actions? I absolutely hate terrorism and terrorists but I can't but help think this lot had some justification but seemingly you seem to think its ok for ISIS to finish what the Turkish govt started?
Click to expand...

There was no justification for launched an armed, quasi-Maoist insurgency against the Turkish state in the '90s. Part of the reason why there was no justification was that the Turkish state was certain to respond with extreme violence and oppression. And by insisting on an independent state (as opposed to regional autonomy, cultural tolerance etc), the PKK made an impossible demand that the Turkish state can never meet.

Both sides deliberately targeted civilians, but it was more important to the PKK to do so, simply because of their inferior conventional military capabilities. I don't mind seeing the PKK destroyed at all.
 
phildwyer said:
Turkish secularism has been defeated.

Of course it won't disappear: the bulk of the bourgeoisie will remain secularist forever. But their days in power are over.
Click to expand...
You've talked up a lot of shit in this thread y'know. I don't know about your life obviously but I know many Turkish people in N London W/C-bourgeois. I was at a funeral for a mate last year and apart from the wailing grandmothers and the loathsome Imam who exploited my friend's death to prothlesize over his grave despite being an atheist everyone there was about as connected to the almighty as me. Hint not much.
 
IC3D said:
You've talked up a lot of shit in this thread y'know. I don't know about your life obviously but I know many Turkish people in N London W/C-bourgeois. I was at a funeral for a mate last year and apart from the wailing grandmothers and the loathsome Imam who exploited my friend's death to prothlesize over his grave despite being an atheist everyone there was about as connected to the almighty as me. Hint not much.
Click to expand...

The reason I say Turkish secularism has been defeated is because the AK Party has won the last four elections and two referenda.

It's a statement of fact, not an opinion.
 
Last edited:
phildwyer said:
The reason I say Turkish secularism has been defeated is because the AK Party has won the last four elections and two referenda.

It's a statement of fact, not an opinion.
Click to expand...
Erdogan's party seem to thrive in corruption friendly environment by divide and rule rather than piety
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

tim
Bizarre acts of terrorism - statue of Lenin and Mao blown up in Texas.
Replies
3
Views
386
belboid
belboid
Bingoman
Turkish terror attack 23rd October 2024
Replies
4
Views
739
_Russ_
_Russ_
tim
State murder in Singapore.
Replies
21
Views
846
A380
A380
JimW
Indian state implicated in murder of Sikh activist in Canada
2
Replies
30
Views
1K
_Russ_
_Russ_
Pickman's model
fascist republican state legislators (usa)
Replies
0
Views
378
Pickman's model
Pickman's model
Back
Top Bottom