The Green Party has some serious questions to answer
- Thread starter q_w_e_r_t_y
- Start date
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Reckon this is tip of iceberg. Neo liberal big tech vs sex and the free market, innit.
I mentioned on this thread 2 years ago about boundaries and safeguarding, how listening to stakeholders in protection of kids/teens (primary care givers and legislation) should be taken seriously.
Specifically peado apologia and the wedge that drives it into acceptable society (just search my name and make up your own minds).
Am looking forward to more "bigoteering" from the usual suspects.
However, this is at least a smidge towards a positive step.
Perhaps now reddit will stop banning people for having Frank conversations about the link between postmodern discourse, lack of boundaries (linguistically and consentually), and the door left ajar.
I stopped posting on Urban on threads like this in 2018. I break that self-inflicted, self-protective rule now just to say I'm sad that the gravitas needed for language clarity, acceptability, and ultimately child safeguarding (as well as the reach into multi millionaire tech acceptability of discourse) is still being argued over.
I shall go back to the fluff threads and forums.
Just posting to say it's a real shame that historical editing is still part of this, that the power of socmed tech under patriarchy (as in material dialectical analysis) is still being handwaved. I still haven't gone anywhere, even though I post less on here as a consequence.
Re-reading this was interesting.
I mentioned on this thread 2 years ago about boundaries and safeguarding, how listening to stakeholders in protection of kids/teens (primary care givers and legislation) should be taken seriously.
Specifically peado apologia and the wedge that drives it into acceptable society (just search my name and make up your own minds).
Am looking forward to more "bigoteering" from the usual suspects.
However, this is at least a smidge towards a positive step.
Perhaps now reddit will stop banning people for having Frank conversations about the link between postmodern discourse, lack of boundaries (linguistically and consentually), and the door left ajar.
I stopped posting on Urban on threads like this in 2018. I break that self-inflicted, self-protective rule now just to say I'm sad that the gravitas needed for language clarity, acceptability, and ultimately child safeguarding (as well as the reach into multi millionaire tech acceptability of discourse) is still being argued over.
I shall go back to the fluff threads and forums.
Just posting to say it's a real shame that historical editing is still part of this, that the power of socmed tech under patriarchy (as in material dialectical analysis) is still being handwaved. I still haven't gone anywhere, even though I post less on here as a consequence.
Re-reading this was interesting.
And they get banned for saying that they are women? Can you give me an example?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
They have done, yes. Someone called Clare Curran who tweeted as @TheCurran73 was tweeted at by some TRA who thought it was a great idea to post up a photo of her next to a photo of themself and basically have a sneer because the trans woman thought she was prettier and "more feminine" than the biological woman - so radical! - not at all sexist! And everyone knows lesbians and feminists are just ugly slags who can't get a man so it's bound to be true.
The phrase used was something like "I pass better"
Clare's reply - "I don't 'pass', I am" got her banned.
That's of course an implicit "and you're not". I thought this was going to be somebody well known and particularly obnoxious like Posey Parker. But it turns out that she still has a Twitter account. I guess the all powerful tra's haven't got round to her yet.
This Clare Curran seems to be an anti-trans conspiracy type, though. And looking at the last few pages, it's fair to say you are too. We saw all this stuff with Labour/left anti-semitism.
The clunky oppressed/oppressors binary
The monolithic conception of tra's/zionists combined with the idea that they're really in control
Trying to exploit bad faith accusations of transphobia/anti-semitism to claim that definitions of transphobia/anti-semitism are now weakened or even meaningless
The proactive defence and promotion of outriders.
The obsessive bringing in of talking points where they just don't apply. You have made the bulk of this thread about the threat of self-identifying trans women because of an abuser called David. David.
Whereas the access to women's spaces issue/Palestinian rights might be sincerely meant but it's still a cover for a whole lot more. Because you're sticking it to the supposedly powerful, it's all fair game.
This Clare Curran seems to be an anti-trans conspiracy type, though. And looking at the last few pages, it's fair to say you are too. We saw all this stuff with Labour/left anti-semitism.
The clunky oppressed/oppressors binary
The monolithic conception of tra's/zionists combined with the idea that they're really in control
Trying to exploit bad faith accusations of transphobia/anti-semitism to claim that definitions of transphobia/anti-semitism are now weakened or even meaningless
The proactive defence and promotion of outriders.
The obsessive bringing in of talking points where they just don't apply. You have made the bulk of this thread about the threat of self-identifying trans women because of an abuser called David. David.
Whereas the access to women's spaces issue/Palestinian rights might be sincerely meant but it's still a cover for a whole lot more. Because you're sticking it to the supposedly powerful, it's all fair game.
muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
The terrain on reddit is a sort of right wing free market identity politics place for those of you who haven't spent time on the site. There's some good pockets on there but it's mainly an absolute abyss and anything promising gets subsumed into becoming what this thread essentially is
muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
Twitters moderating is shit across the board of all disadvantaged groups. bearing in mind I've done a lot more feminist work that trans rights work (although by nature they overlap significantly) and this reflected in who I was following on twitter, I definitely saw trans people getting moderated more harshly than cis women, who were also being moderated harshly
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
But isn't that literally the point the trans woman was making? Why is it not transphobia for them to say they "pass", if it is for someone born female to say it?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Libertarianism, innnit. All conceptions of liberty as negative liberty must tend towards the ideal of liberty as total liberty, which ends in the negation of liberty. It must end in the negation of liberty, as in a condition of total negative liberty the strong must be allowed to prey on the weak.
Which side are you criticising here?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Not to mention the "ugly feminist" trope that the tw is happily re-cycling. I really don't get why all the keen trans allies don't just disavow this stuff and point out that it's all a bit complex, some shit on all sides etc. But they just can't - it's always black and white.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's always someone else has to do the disavowing and admitting or pointing out and never you. Strange that.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
It's all just a narcissistic game to them - "look at me, look at what a great ally I am".
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I think the gist is that I'm an anti-semite and a "transphobe", but he does sound like he's reading off a prepared script so I hope he's ok.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not sure you're really helping re the clunky binaries here.
Your analogy does have some merit. There are similarities in that both disputes involve groups seeking ownership of definitions. But I don't think it's quite right to characterise those doing so in either case as 'outriders'. The Israeli government isn't exactly an outrider when it seeks to include within a definition of anti-Semitism pretty much all anti-Zionism. And the likes of Mermaids aren't exactly outriders when they seek to impose their definitions and relative weightings of sex and gender and label everyone who disagrees a bigot.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's good of you to condescend to say so
How do you know that's what got her banned? People are rarely banned for a single tweet but for a pattern of behaviour. This may include behaviour that only the moderators are aware of such as using sockpuppet accounts (which happened in Glinner's case). The tweet they are eventually banned for is usually the 'final straw', not an innocent isolated incident.
Much of this moderation is carried out by low paid workers in places like Manila - who probably think they're the most oppresed group ever but still manage to "stroll into a major internet corporate". I very much doubt they give a shit about a factional row over trans people taking place in the UK. People are usually banned for repeatedly breaking twitter's rules, and no doubt people are also banned by mistake. This has happened to both trans and gender critical people. It has also happened to those on the far right, and those on the left. And climate change deniers and climate activists. And Tories and Labour supporters. What unites them is those on the crankier ends of all those spectrums are utterly convinced there is big tech conspiracy to silence them - much in the same way a lot of politicos in the UK get obsessed about the BBC - athough there is at least some truth in that which is that they are generally biased towards the government of the day.
Big tech cares about money, there is no conspiracy, moderation is just done on the cheap. What gets moderated depends on the mores of the day. If pogroms started happening against trans people with popular and government support then big tech would no doubt fall inline, just as big business always does in such situations. Twitter, facebook and reddit are not secretly plotting to destroy women and children by asking people to respect trans people's pronouns, they are just doing business within the spirit of the times because presumably that is what is the most profitable thing to do. Reddit made a mistake by hiring someone without fully knowing their background, although CRB checks would have done nothing to inform them of this because Aimee Challenor has not been convicted of a crime. Their anti-dox policies intended to protect employees turned out not to work very well. A few reddit groups complained, and Reddit have rectified it. Challenor worked at Reddit for about 3 months. That's it. Anyone insisting this is all part of some insidious trans plot to do whatever it is you think trans people are secretly plotting to do is a fucking crank.
Last edited:
Are you really comparing a tiny charity with less than a dozen full time employees to the Israeli government?
muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
Holy shit the list of subreddits that set themselves to private is huge. Imagine if the majority of twitter or instagram set itself to private? Full list here . Some of the ones on the list may seem suprising depending on what assumptions you hold about different groups of people and their beliefs.
baldrick
hmmmmm
Actually CRB has been replaced by DBS now and it is possible that 'non-conviction' information is supplied by police forces if it is deemed relevant, part of changes brought in post Huntley.
Only for an enhanced disclosure check, and even then it might not come up. Aimee was a child when these offences took place, and I'm not aware that she was ever investigated as being under suspician herself.
I'm not convinced enhanced disclosure for social media mods is a good idea tbh. Are the mods here all DBS checked? As you say a lot can turn up on an enhanced DBS, much of which may not be related to safeguarding concerns. There are lots of jobs which require some contact with children and vulnerable adults, such as working in a shop, I don't think I'd support extending enhanced DBS checks to anyone who might come across a child in their work, because that could mean any relevent police record being released to future employers - such as a warning for shoplifting as a teenager. It's a bit of a moot point anyway since most social media moderators aren't based in the UK, I think any regulation should be geared towards the safety procedures the companies have in place - such as ensuring any contact between moderators and young users is monitored and recorded.
baldrick
hmmmmm
Yeah I don't know the ins and outs of it, like you say, they are based in the US anyway so I don't know how much of it is relevant.
But I guess the point I was trying badly to make is that we wouldn't necessarily know what 'non-conviction' information is available as that wouldn't be public record. If there was anything, it may not be connected to her dad at all, like you say, she was a child at the time.
But I guess the point I was trying badly to make is that we wouldn't necessarily know what 'non-conviction' information is available as that wouldn't be public record. If there was anything, it may not be connected to her dad at all, like you say, she was a child at the time.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
In some senses, 'why are we discussing her' has itself become the topic. She emerged as 'a story' as another version of the ongoing battle around gender and biology in centre left organisation, with as you say, the added dimension of her own vulnerability. People's positions on that will stay embedded in the story as it develops, but I just think the story has become about something else now. She's blundered through a few leftish groups (+ Libdem lice) and we now have the added aspect of her partner. You've got to kick back against anyone playing the 'look, trans and paedos' card, of course, but ultimately you have to take her case on it's merits. Damaged as she may well be, she's behaved appallingly.
The promoted outriders on this thread are eg. Linehan and Woman's Place UK. By way of analogy with left anti-semitism there's a whole genre of defending and sometimes promoting people who are pushing the envelope eg. Jackie Walker or worse someone like Gilad Atzmon, currently it's David Miller.
And yes the Linehan link might have had useful information, but it was not done in an "apologies for the source" sort of way. Very much the opposite.
Go on say it. Virtue signalling.
Rainblow flag-shagging
Right now I am most concerned about the state of urban75. People who are friendly towards trans rights on here aren't disingenuously calling people transphobes for instance. Look at the beginning of the thread, everybody is in agreement and saying sensible things until Co-op artificially introduces the dreaded dangers of self-identity. Its just shit stirring. But they've gone into some really crazy territory these last few pages. Making a distinction between real if marginal concerns about transwomen in women's safe spaces and this broader conspiratorial thinking isn't difficult. I think it would be best if we stop thinking about sides and start thinking about who is causing problems.
I have a level tolerance for political argy bargy and ugly politics, but I think this is also a community. If we all look the other way, what does that say to trans members?
Do you recognise the irony of this at all?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
She was and the whole family seem very messed up, she is very likely a victim here.
The problem is that she has been allowed to float upwards into jobs where safeguarding was obviously an issue and it seems pretty clear to me she was promoted into those jobs on the basis of her being a trans woman. She was on Stonewall Trans Advisory Board, that's Stonewall who aggressively seek out corporate partners for their "Diversity Champions" Awards (do/say the right things, pay over a large annual cheque) when they advised groups like the Girl Guides that it's cool for teenaged boys to share sleeping and showering facilities with girls provided that they identify as girls etc etc.
The fact that she's absolutely at the centre of a whole web of pedophiles, furrys, fetishists of all flavours, is important, as is the fact that whenever she was questioned about it she yelled "transphobia" and for loads of well-meaning people, that was enough. It isn't and never will be. There simply is no equivalent for biological women to deflect this kind of investigation.
Similar threads
- Poll
