The end of cash?

[xenon]

The conspiracy minded would say the difference is, a centralised purely digital currency, Programable Digital Currency, can have it's value altered. That it can be tied to some other metric, your ability to transact, impeded, restricted, denied based on some arbitary criteria.

With the caviete I haven't really looked into it, indeed, not done my own research, I'm sketpical about the need for PDCs and think they might have a point.

Of course monetary magic can already devalue the funds you have access to but this is like... Something else.

 

[hash tag]

Will it be run by China, making it another way for them to keep an eye on us while making it even easier for us to buy their tat.

 

[kabbes]

There are some really fundamental differences between an actual digital pound and a pound that is merely recorded digitally (like Visa). The question isn’t whether there is a difference or not. There is*. The question is whether those differences matter and are useful. I would contend not.


*I can explain these differences if you really want. I haven’t done so, however, because I don’t think those saying that they don’t understand actually care enough to try to understand. I think that if you are loudly professing that you don’t understand, there is a good chance that you don’t want to understand. And I don’t want to waste my time trying to explain something to people who aren’t motivated to approach that explanation with an open mind, ready to learn. And frankly, if this is you, I don’t blame you. Who cares, really?

 

[lazythursday]

Nope. I'm too old for this. I still don't get it.

to be fair, I'm struggling to.

But basically, I think it is just exactly like your physical wallet full of cash, but digital. So that could be an app on your phone with money in it. It's sat in that wallet app, not in a bank account. You can spend it wherever or give it to another person.

In practical terms there's not that much difference to a bank account app. But it does mean you can hold money without the need for a bank account - which is one of the main objections against going cashless.

 

[skyscraper101]

I think it's simply that it removes the need to have a bank account. You can have a wallet (in a number of different forms, from a number of different providers) and get money put into it from your bank account or direct from another person's wallet. It's like cash in that its just money, no interest, no direct debits etc. So one use case, for those people who complain they can't budget without cash, would be to put your weekly spending money into this digital wallet. Also you could put money into your drug dealer's wallet without it going through the banking system.

Ah OK I understand. So it's basically like bitcoin. No bank account needed, just a 'wallet' - I think unless there's some compelling reason to do this, I'll hold fire for now.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

I got shouted at in the shop the other day when buying a couple of chocolate bars, the total cost came to £1.60. I got the change out of my pocket and the bloke snapped at me because he'd already keyed the amount into his card reader and had shoved it in my face when I wasn't looking! He said "You should have said you were paying cash!" Me: "No I shouldn't. You should ask, not assume." And it wasn't that long ago that they'd moan if you did try to pay with card for such a small amount.

 

[xenon]

There are some really fundamental differences between an actual digital pound and a pound that is merely recorded digitally (like Visa). The question isn’t whether there is a difference or not. There is*. The question is whether those differences matter and are useful. I would contend not.


*I can explain these differences if you really want. I haven’t done so, however, because I don’t think those saying that they don’t understand actually care enough to try to understand. I think that if you are loudly professing that you don’t understand, there is a good chance that you don’t want to understand. And I don’t want to waste my time trying to explain something to people who aren’t motivated to approach that explanation with an open mind, ready to learn. And frankly, if this is you, I don’t blame you. Who cares, really?

I'm actually a bit curious but not got time to properly engage right now. Throw me a link though if you have a good one. Otherwise I'll have a tentative Google over weekend.

 

[kabbes]

to be fair, I'm struggling to.

But basically, I think it is just exactly like your physical wallet full of cash, but digital. So that could be an app on your phone with money in it. It's sat in that wallet app, not in a bank account. You can spend it wherever or give it to another person.

In practical terms there's not that much difference to a bank account app. But it does mean you can hold money without the need for a bank account - which is one of the main objections against going cashless.

There’s more to it than merely where ownership is recorded. You have to also think about what infrastructure (and thus trust in the infrastructure) is needed to make a transaction happen at all. When you spend a physical pound, you don’t need the Visa infrastructure to work as part of the exchange or transaction. You simply give the pound to someone and now they have that pound. That process is also inherent to the digital currency, albeit that it is insanely complicated and resource-heavy. But no intermediary is necessary (theoretically).

 

[moochedit]

Nope. I'm too old for this. I still don't get it.

You don't need to understand it. It'll almost certainly never happen. Try the bitcoin thread for more of this nonsense.

 

[brogdale]

I got shouted at in the shop the other day when buying a couple of chocolate bars, the total cost came to £1.60. I got the change out of my pocket and the bloke snapped at me because he'd already keyed the amount into his card reader and had shoved it in my face when I wasn't looking! He said "You should have said you were paying cash!" Me: "No I shouldn't. You should ask, not assume." And it wasn't that long ago that they'd moan if you did try to pay with card for such a small amount.

It's a shame that you needed those bars right then, otherwise it must have been tempting to tell the rude shopkeeper that, actually you'd gone off the idea of buying them, now.

 

[hash tag]

You don't need to understand it. It'll almost certainly never happen. Try the bitcoin thread for more of this nonsense.

I'm not sure I wish to embrace something I don't understand.

 

[kabbes]

I'm actually a bit curious but not got time to properly engage right now. Throw me a link though if you have a good one. Otherwise I'll have a tentative Google over weekend.

The wiki article about CBDCs is actually quite good

Central bank digital currency - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

However, that article doesn’t seem to talk about one key difference between Visa, say, and a digital pound, which is how that pound is created in the first place. Most money is created by the issuance of a loan by a commercial bank. However, a digital pound is “minted” in the same way as a physical one — by order of the central bank. So it’s a fundamentally different part of the money supply.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

It's a shame that you needed those bars right then, otherwise it must have been tempting to tell the rude shopkeeper that, actually you'd gone off the idea of buying them, now.

Yeah, I'm not the type to spout "The customer is always right" - a phrase which is often misused and thrown around to justify shitty treatment of customer service workers - but this is literally the situation where it would have been appropriate. The full version is "The customer is always right about what they want" so even if he felt paying by card was better, that's not his decision to make for me.

 

[NoXion]

I believe that the original intention of the phrase is that "the customer is always right in matters of taste". So if a customer wants custard on their fish fingers (and both are offered by the establishment in question), you give them custard on their fish fingers. Unfortunately it's a phrase that's since been twisted into a demand for unlimited license for unreasonable demands.

 

[editor]

Interesting piece from Dec 2023:

By Transactions

Cash usage grew for the first time in a decade, rising to 19% of all transactions (from 15% in 2021). This reflects a choice by many households to use cash to budget more carefully during the onset of the cost of living crisis, as well as a natural return to cash usage following the move to contactless during Covid. Card payments were used for 76% of transactions (83% in 2021), with debit cards accounting for four-fifths of these transactions.

By Spending

Cards accounted for the overwhelming proportion (85%) of money spent, with debit cards taking three-quarters of this spending. They are used more often than credit cards but for smaller value transactions. Meanwhile, cash increased to 11% of consumer spend (8% in 2021).

The increase in cash usage – both by spend and transaction numbers – is welcome. BRC members are committed to accepting cash payments, supporting vulnerable groups and those using cash to budget. Government should ensure that cash acceptance is a viable option for merchants and customers across the whole ecosystem.

https://brc.org.uk/news/corporate-affairs/cost-of-living-drives-return-to-cash/.

 

[skyscraper101]

Reminds me, I need to go and get a few fivers from the Bank tomorrow. I usually like carry some cash on me, but its near impossible to just get £5 notes from ATMs these days (I know there are some that do, but still) - they are the most useful thing if you're needing to tip in cash or reimburse someone for getting you a sandwich or whatever.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

How dare he sound so hopeful? He can fuck off with his AI, the smug cunt.

Bank branches are closing ‘because no one uses them’ and end of cash is ‘inevitable’, AI expert claims

GB News panellists discussed bank branch closures and the use of cash this morning

www.gbnews.com

 

[hash tag]

Our use of cash goes back to Roman times, so hopefully it will be around a little while longe.
Just happened upon this

Austria​

In August 2023, Chancellor of Austria Karl Nehammer came out in support for enshrining cash in the Austrian constitution. This came after the Freedom Party of Austria campaigned on the idea.[44][45][46][47]

Switzerland​

In 2023, The Switzerland government supported moves to have a constitutional protection for cash. This came after a popular initiative asked for it.[48][49][50][51][52]

Slovakia​

In June 2023, The Slovakian parliament voted with the support of 111 of 150 MPs to put the right to use Cash in the Constitution of Slovakia. The amendment was proposed by the Sme Rodina party.[53]

 

[andysays]

Our use of cash goes back to Roman times, so hopefully it will be around a little while longe.
Just happened upon this

Austria​

In August 2023, Chancellor of Austria Karl Nehammer came out in support for enshrining cash in the Austrian constitution. This came after the Freedom Party of Austria campaigned on the idea.[44][45][46][47]

Switzerland​

In 2023, The Switzerland government supported moves to have a constitutional protection for cash. This came after a popular initiative asked for it.[48][49][50][51][52]

Slovakia​

In June 2023, The Slovakian parliament voted with the support of 111 of 150 MPs to put the right to use Cash in the Constitution of Slovakia. The amendment was proposed by the Sme Rodina party.[53]

Interesting that it's right wing populist parties who have been the ones defending the right to cash

(I'm not saying that makes it an inherently right wing concept, in case anyone gets that idea)

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Interesting that it's right wing populist parties who have been the ones defending the right to cash

(I'm not saying that makes it an inherently right wing concept, in case anyone gets that idea)

I know what you mean. Unfortunately, it's usually the right wing voices which are loudest, which is how these sentiments get associated with "the right". When logically, of course we should want to protect access to cash for those who need it, and nobody in their right mind would think there was anything right wing about that. It's just that when the right hijack reasonable concerns, there are those on the left/more moderate who are scared to be associated with this, and distance themselves. And that's what the real right wingers want, to create this sort of division.

 

[danny la rouge]

Interesting that it's right wing populist parties who have been the ones defending the right to cash

(I'm not saying that makes it an inherently right wing concept, in case anyone gets that idea)

There’s a real issue of access. Those left behind will be marginalised groups. That should be territory for the left (in the broadest sense). But of course there’s no left, really.

 

[brogdale]

Interesting that it's right wing populist parties who have been the ones defending the right to cash

(I'm not saying that makes it an inherently right wing concept, in case anyone gets that idea)

It is interesting; I suspect the supposed correlation between the generally older demographic profile of cash users and voters has not been missed by the "populists".

 

[weltweit]

Hmm

89 pages

Checks wallet, yup still have notes and coins.

The end of cash has been overstated!

 

[PR1Berske]

Hmm

89 pages

Checks wallet, yup still have notes and coins.

The end of cash has been overstated!

It's a very niche hobby, though, spending cash. I find myself saying "Old fashioned!" when the bar staff (it's me, it's always bar staff) turn around with a card reader and I'm handing over a tenner.

 

[brogdale]

It's a very niche hobby, though, spending cash. I find myself saying "Old fashioned!" when the bar staff (it's me, it's always bar staff) turn around with a card reader and I'm handing over a tenner.

In similar situations I find myself referring to real money

 

[PR1Berske]

In similar situations I find myself referring to real money

It's borderline conspiracy territory to say things like "At least these notes can't go down or be hacked!" but I know what the canteen staff at work are like so it's a guaranteed conversation over the bacon butty and tea.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

It's a very niche hobby, though, spending cash. I find myself saying "Old fashioned!" when the bar staff (it's me, it's always bar staff) turn around with a card reader and I'm handing over a tenner.

I refuse to be apologetic about using cash, in fact when they hold out the card reader assuming that's how I'll pay, I pointedly ignore it and carry on holding out my note.

 

[brogdale]

I refuse to be apologetic about using cash, in fact when they hold out the card reader assuming that's how I'll pay, I pointedly ignore it and carry on holding out my note.

Like your style LCL

 

[LeytonCatLady]

It's borderline conspiracy territory to say things like "At least these notes can't go down or be hacked!" but I know what the canteen staff at work are like so it's a guaranteed conversation over the bacon butty and tea.

It really isn't. It's true, cash doesn't go down or get hacked. Nothing conspiracy theorist about wanting to pay in the way you find safest. It sounds like your work canteen at least accepts cash though, which mine doesn't at all.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Like your style LCL

As mentioned earlier, it got me shouted at by the rude twat in my local newsagent, but sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in.