The end of cash?

[brogdale]

You don't need to spend money on tech. There are these wonderful bits of technology called 'bank cards'.

This arose in the context of how some poor/marginalised people find it easier to budget with physical cash and the smug suggestion that "apps" are just as good. There are, AFAIAA, no "apps" on a bank card.

 

[mojo pixy]

Because my boss won't pay me in cash. And keeping all your money under the mattress isn't a great idea.

This is a reductio ad absurdum, maybe try answering my actual question. Also, try seeing beyond your own experience / your own boss.

Sure. And you can go live in a tent in the woods and hunter & gather your own food.

Again with the reductio ad absurdum, why?

But otherwise to participate in society you do have to just go along with what everybody else has agreed is the way we collectively do things.

Absolute rubbish since when was this a rule? What other choices does it apply to?

If you refuse to have a bank account you’ll find a lot of people or organisations aren’t going to feel the need to work around that for you.

This is a really problematic attitude tbh, why are those people and organisations able to unilaterally exclude people? Why would we support this?

Like you’re restricted to just dodgy cash in hand jobs.

So working cash in hand is destined for the bin, why? Who decided this?

 

[Winot]

This is a reductio ad absurdum, maybe try answering my actual question. Also, try seeing beyond your own experience / your own boss.

Again with the reductio ad absurdum, why?

Absolute rubbish since when was this a rule? What other choices does it apply to?

This is a really problematic attitude tbh, why are those people and organisations able to unilaterally exclude people? Why would we support this?

So working cash in hand is destined for the bin, why? Who decided this?

What makes you think that society works like that, with someone ‘deciding’?

There’s no controlling hand. Habits of society evolve/emerge by consensus or common practice or necessity, unless constrained (eg by legislation).

 

[mojo pixy]

What makes you think that society works like that, with someone ‘deciding’?

There’s no controlling hand. Habits of society evolve/emerge by consensus or common practice or necessity, unless constrained (eg by legislation).

Consensus is one thing, consensus as a tool for social exclusion is another. And let's not play down the role of the banking industry in pushing this change. Seriously, let's not.

 

[liquidindian]

Let me know when we've decided if being unbanked is good or bad.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Let me know when we've decided if being unbanked is good or bad.

Sounds like you're pretty adamant anyway TBH!

 

[Elohim]

Agreed. If I don’t want my every purchase tracked, for example. Not because I’m “doing something wrong”, but let’s turn that around: if I’m not doing anything wrong, why do you want to spy on me?

Political reasons .Could you have your digital account frozen if you go on a protest in the future

 

[Elohim]

Sure. And you can go live in a tent in the woods and hunter & gather your own food.

But otherwise to participate in society you do have to just go along with what everybody else has agreed is the way we collectively do things.
If you refuse to have a bank account you’ll find a lot of people or organisations aren’t going to feel the need to work around that for you.
Like you’re restricted to just dodgy cash in hand jobs.

Lots of Chinese feel this way and social credit system strong there.
Becareful what you wish for.

 

[liquidindian]

Sounds like you're pretty adamant anyway TBH!

If I was some sort of new romantic highwayman I'd prefer cash, surely?

 

[mojo pixy]

Let me know when we've decided if being unbanked is good or bad.

That would depend on whether or not it's a choice, I should think. If someone decides not to have a bank account it shouldn't socially disable them, just as choosing not to own a car or a smartphone shouldn't (though 'consensus' might suggest we should just all have a car and a smartphone because life's more convenient that way)

 

[UnderOpenSky]

That would depend on whether or not it's a choice, I should think. If someone decides not to have a bank account it shouldn't socially disable them, just as choosing not to own a car or a smartphone shouldn't (though 'consensus' might suggest we should just all have a car and a smartphone because life's more convenient that way)

Hasn't that ship long sailed? Even if you use cash for everything your still "socially disabled" if you don't have a bank account at all.

 

[mojo pixy]

Hasn't that ship long sailed? Even if you use cash for everything your still "socially disabled" if you don't have a bank account at all.

Well in that case a review is in order IMO. It won't happen though because of all the assumptions surrounding 'banklessness' (to invent a word)

(edit to add, plus the fact that 'bankless' people are most likely at the bottom of any and every social ladder, so who cares about them)

 

[LeytonCatLady]

That would depend on whether or not it's a choice, I should think. If someone decides not to have a bank account it shouldn't socially disable them, just as choosing not to own a car or a smartphone shouldn't (though 'consensus' might suggest we should just all have a car and a smartphone because life's more convenient that way)

When I was working from home, in order to activate the Teams chat on our laptop, we had to authenticate it by downloading an app on our phones. And the job didn't officially require a smartphone, just a Windows 10 computer. Thankfully, all of us were able to do this but I couldn't help wondering what if someone didn't have a smartphone? It took me until 2019 to get one myself.

 

[lazythursday]

That would depend on whether or not it's a choice, I should think. If someone decides not to have a bank account it shouldn't socially disable them, just as choosing not to own a car or a smartphone shouldn't (though 'consensus' might suggest we should just all have a car and a smartphone because life's more convenient that way)

I guess I come at this from the principle that everyone should have access to participate fully in society, whether that's about having safe secure housing, access to transport, finance, etc. We need to design all those systems so that everyone can participate. But that's not the same thing as allowing everyone to opt-out and totally do their own thing, which just feels like bloody-minded libertarianism to me.

 

[teuchter]

Maybe, but your repeated and exclusive use of the term "comfortable" in post #2226 suggests that your grasp was particularly deficient.
Saying that people are excluded from the cashless economy merely on the basis of comfort/discomfort implies a degree of choice not open to those who are excluded.

I did not say that though did I?

It seems like your starting point when reading anyone's post is to assume maximum ignorance and ill intent.

If I said that kittens should not be killed by firing squad you'd interpret that as a statement of support for killing kittens with steamrollers.

 

[Elohim]

Hasn't that ship long sailed? Even if you use cash for everything your still "socially disabled" if you don't have a bank account at all.

It's always good to have choices. Few times I've gone to cash point to get cash out for taxi and it's declined.

A small glitch online could leave you penniless till you phone bank up.

Some towns used to have their own barter system called LETS and other names,in order to exchange your time .

Years ago I did someone's decorating in exchange for credit to his food at his allotment.

Not seen these systems for year's now .

 

[UnderOpenSky]

It's always good to have choices. Few times I've gone to cash point to get cash out for taxi and it's declined.

A small glitch online could leave you penniless till you phone bank up.

Some towns used to have their own barter system called LETS and other names,in order to exchange your time .

Years ago I did someone's decorating in exchange for credit to his food at his allotment.

Not seen these systems for year's now .

Yes. I'd imagine HMRC probably wanted a word.

 

[mojo pixy]

I guess I come at this from the principle that everyone should have access to participate fully in society, whether that's about having safe secure housing, access to transport, finance, etc. We need to design all those systems so that everyone can participate. But that's not the same thing as allowing everyone to opt-out and totally do their own thing, which just feels like bloody-minded libertarianism to me.

obviously you can call it 'bloody minded libertarianism' if you want but what we're really talking about is just freedom actually. As in freedom to (to choose) and freedom from (from control)

 

[UnderOpenSky]

When I was working from home, in order to activate the Teams chat on our laptop, we had to authenticate it by downloading an app on our phones. And the job didn't officially require a smartphone, just a Windows 10 computer. Thankfully, all of us were able to do this but I couldn't help wondering what if someone didn't have a smartphone? It took me until 2019 to get one myself.

Either the company issues you one, use something called a FIDO key which looks like a USB stick, recive a text or even a call to a land-line.

 

[8ball]

obviously you can call it 'bloody minded libertarianism' if you want but what we're really talking about is just freedom actually. As in freedom to (to choose) and freedom from (from control)

Bit of a barmy notion, if you don’t mind me saying.

 

[brogdale]

I did not say that though did I?

That’s exactly what you said; you should try reading what you’ve written.

 

[Elohim]

Yes. I'd imagine HMRC probably wanted a word.

Yes maybe

 

[teuchter]

That’s exactly what you said; you should try reading what you’ve written.

What I actually said, in full -

It's not, now, really all that difficult just to have a "pocket money" debit card that you can transfer set amounts onto, from your main current account.

That is, if you are comfortable with the tech side of setting this up. I realise there might be older people who aren't comfortable with online banking or smartphone apps, for whom this would not be straightforward.

What you then claim I said. The bold emphasis is mine.

Maybe, but your repeated and exclusive use of the term "comfortable" in post #2226 suggests that your grasp was particularly deficient.
Saying that people are excluded from the cashless economy merely on the basis of comfort/discomfort implies a degree of choice not open to those who are excluded.

Did I say that people can be excluded merely on this basis? No I did not. Was I even talking about the issue of who may or may not be excluded? No I was not. I was talking specifically about ways of budgeting on a "pocket money" basis and which ways might be difficult or complicated.

 

[brogdale]

What I actually said, in full -


What you then claim I said. The bold emphasis is mine.



Did I say that people can be excluded merely on this basis? No I did not. Was I even talking about the issue of who may or may not be excluded? No I was not. I was talking specifically about ways of budgeting on a "pocket money" basis and which ways might be difficult or complicated.

And restricted specifically to “older people who aren’t comfortable with online banking or smartphone apps”.

You sound quite out of touch with the reality of the lived experience of those struggling with very low incomes.

 

[liquidindian]

And restricted specifically to “older people who aren’t comfortable with online banking or smartphone apps”.

You sound quite out of touch with the reality of the lived experience of those struggling with very low incomes.

Yeah, you didn't mention absolutely everyone who could be excluded. GOTCHA. You have to mention everyone potentially excluded and all the reasons every single time or you're just smug and out of touch.

 

[brogdale]

Got me there; can see why you went into banking

 

[Elohim]

I'm a roofer by trade . The last couple year's I'm doing more cash jobs which works better for me and the customer.

Without cash I would struggle with mortgages and helps things to tick over until work picks up.

 

[Chz]

I'm a roofer by trade . The last couple year's I'm doing more cash jobs which works better for me and the customer.

Without cash I would struggle with mortgages and helps things to tick over until work picks up.

How does cash make it easier to pay a mortgage?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

How does cash make it easier to pay a mortgage?

By 20% approx I'd have thought

 

[Chz]

By 20% approx I'd have thought

I didn't want to come right out and say "Are you admitting to tax fraud on a public forum"