The end of cash?

[Cid]

Can't see why folk are so keen to reinvent this lowest common denominator of financial transaction, tbh.

Because it's not very good at what it does. Even if you discount the fact that it's gradually being phased out/reduced by a bunch of factors that there's not a snowball's chance in hell any government is going to try to reverse.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Because it's not very good at what it does.

That's debatable. Personally, as long I've used it, I always get to walk out the shop with my goods. That seems pretty good to me.

 

[brogdale]

Because it's not very good at what it does. Even if you discount the fact that it's gradually being phased out/reduced by a bunch of factors that there's not a snowball's chance in hell any government is going to try to reverse.

I've not seen anyone on here call for a reversal in the means to pay without cash; it's clearly very convenient for many people. What I've been arguing consistently is that, for the sake of the excluded/vulnerable etc. it is important to retain the option of cash. Frankly, I've been surprised by the number of posters on here who seem largely unbothered by the problems that the rush to a cashless economy will cause to the well-being of significant groups in society. The "ho-hum... it's just gonna happen so you better get with it Daddio" line does appear less than caring.

 

[kabbes]

I've not seen anyone on here call for a reversal in the means to pay without cash;

Have you seen anyone on here call for a removal of the option to pay with cash?

 

[brogdale]

Have you seen anyone on here call for a removal of the option to pay with cash?

No, just articulate/accept the “inevitability” of that happening.

 

[kabbes]

No, just articulate/accept the “inevitability” of that happening.

Quite the reverse — I’ve seen even those most in favour of cashless transactions argue that it is important to maintain the option of cash payments .

 

[brogdale]

Quite the reverse — I’ve seen even those most in favour of cashless transactions argue that it is important to maintain the option of cash payments .

Maybe it’s just my interpretation of what’s been said, then? Maybe I’ve been reading some posting wrong?

 

[brogdale]

On a lighter note...found myself in Wimbledon today and went in to M&S food to see if there were any good yellow labels, what with half of the twats being away in Tuscany and what have you.

Anyway...picked up £4.35 worth of reduced fruit, paid in cash naturally, and then glancing down to pack me bag spotted some shrapnel in the vacated next-door machine’s change tray. Turned out to be a near max jackpot of £4.55. Left Wimbledon with a bag full of fruit and 20p up; I love cash

 

[kabbes]

Maybe it’s just my interpretation of what’s been said, then? Maybe I’ve been reading some posting wrong?

I don’t know — can you point me to an example of somebody saying that cash should be completely done away with? Or that we should ignore any ill-effects from it disappearing?

 

[liquidindian]

Maybe I’ve been reading some posting wrong?

Yes.

 

[brogdale]

I don’t know — can you point me to an example of somebody saying that cash should be completely done away with? Or that we should ignore any ill-effects from it disappearing?

Not really, because I said that some had posted articulating/accepting the “inevitability” of a cashless economy. I suppose I was thinking about comments like this:

I just think the solution is to ensure the cashless society works for everyone, because I think attempts to keep cash around forever are either doomed, or going to keep cash around in such a niche form that it's pretty much the same.

 

[brogdale]

Yes.

Or maybe not.

 

[kabbes]

Not really, because I said that some had posted articulating/accepting the “inevitability” of a cashless economy. I suppose I was thinking about comments like this:

I don’t think that to be fatalistic is to be accepting, though.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Free cash for all

Banks face fines if they breach rules on access to cash

The Treasury says people should be able to get cash within three miles for rural areas, or one mile in towns.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's weird, but having seen this reported on TV & online, not a single report seemed to have mentioned that the vast majority of, if not all, banks have arrangements with the Post Office for everyday personal or business banking services at any one of over 11,500 branches.

If I've got cash to pay in, I don't bugger about getting the bus or driving into town to use my bank branch, when I can walk up the road and use my local sub-PO, which has longer and more convenient hours, seven days a week, with the added bonus that the PO gets a small fee from the bank for handling it.

I've got two PO branches well within a mile of me, and another two within a 1.5 miles radius.

Everyday Banking | Personal and Business Accounts | Post Office

Manage your personal or business Everyday Banking over the counter at any of our 11,500 UK Post Offices. Learn more about our banking services at postoffice.co.uk.

www.postoffice.co.uk

 

[brogdale]

I don’t think that to be fatalistic is to be accepting, though.

Some of the posting in this thread has gone well beyond fatalism and lurched towards the celebratory with added insinuation of tin-foil hat/loonery for those expressing misgivings about the trend.

 

[Elohim]

innit?

State of these bank fans

70/80s anarchist

Well some of us need to save so the banks have money to loan to those who don't

Maybe good idea to invite Halifax, Barclays, etc down with their stalls on next anti capitalist demo.

 

[MickiQ]

70/80s anarchist

Maybe good idea to invite Halifax, Barclays, etc down with their stalls on next anti capitalist demo.

Even the most committed of anarchists still need to eat and pay rent.

 

[The39thStep]

Some of the posting in this thread has gone well beyond fatalism and lurched towards the celebratory with added insinuation of tin-foil hat/loonery for those expressing misgivings about the trend.

I particularly liked the posts where staff weren't tipped in order to show antiquated small foreign businesses and their spanish practises the errors of relying on cash tips

 

[Cid]

Some of the posting in this thread has gone well beyond fatalism and lurched towards the celebratory with added insinuation of tin-foil hat/loonery for those expressing misgivings about the trend.

Since we have a tendency to get sidetracked, my position is this:

• Cash serves a vital function for people who haven't been able to adopt other payment methods. That is a time limited factor. In 20 years it will be a very different situation.
• Cash serves a vital function for people who need to be under the radar on some level. That's probably my main concern. I don't think either the current government or Starmer give the slightest shit about that side. I'm not sure any government can be trusted to implement an alternative.
• Adoption of non-cash payment methods is very, very high and growing. This is not a value judgement, it is an observation.
• No government is going to regulate to force businesses to take cash... Or at least it's possible they might for supermarkets, as these are a pretty easy to define category in law, though there is no indication that they will.
• Cash is not a panacea. It has utility in some specific situations, but it won't stop supermarkets implementing reward cards or a government suspending your bank account or surveilling you.

Cash is an expensive system to administrate. It requires a lot of infrastructure, and has a lot of loss and vulnerabilities in its distribution and use. It is therefore not in a great position with cost cutting by government/companies as it is. Individual action will not, I think, make the slightest difference to this situation.

On 'advocacy' I think what a lot of us are trying to say is that, despite the fact we're not exactly comfortable with the potential loss of cash, we are finding ourselves using cashless because it has just become a bit ridiculous not doing that.

 

[Cid]

70/80s anarchist

Maybe good idea to invite Halifax, Barclays, etc down with their stalls on next anti capitalist demo.

We'll put them with your G4S stand, they administer most cash distribution in the UK.

 

[Elohim]

Even the most committed of anarchists still need to eat and pay rent.

Many year's ago we had tye anarchist gardeners. Armed with back pack of seeds ready to grow food on every bit of waste land. If we all did that could eliminate food poverty.

 

[Elohim]

We'll put them with your G4S stand, they administer most cash distribution in the UK.

Why would I want a G4S stand

 

[Cid]

Why would I want a G4S stand

Oh right, I was having a dig in response to a dig which - on recapping - you didn't actually make in the first place. So my apologies.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

An article about digital exclusion that touches on the shift towards a more cashless society

No app, no entry: How the digital world is failing the non tech-savvy

The elderly, the poor and the unbanked are among the marginalised groups being excluded from our cashless society

www.theguardian.com

 

[brogdale]

Since we have a tendency to get sidetracked, my position is this:

• Cash serves a vital function for people who haven't been able to adopt other payment methods. That is a time limited factor. In 20 years it will be a very different situation.
• Cash serves a vital function for people who need to be under the radar on some level. That's probably my main concern. I don't think either the current government or Starmer give the slightest shit about that side. I'm not sure any government can be trusted to implement an alternative.
• Adoption of non-cash payment methods is very, very high and growing. This is not a value judgement, it is an observation.
• No government is going to regulate to force businesses to take cash... Or at least it's possible they might for supermarkets, as these are a pretty easy to define category in law, though there is no indication that they will.
• Cash is not a panacea. It has utility in some specific situations, but it won't stop supermarkets implementing reward cards or a government suspending your bank account or surveilling you.

Cash is an expensive system to administrate. It requires a lot of infrastructure, and has a lot of loss and vulnerabilities in its distribution and use. It is therefore not in a great position with cost cutting by government/companies as it is. Individual action will not, I think, make the slightest difference to this situation.

On 'advocacy' I think what a lot of us are trying to say is that, despite the fact we're not exactly comfortable with the potential loss of cash, we are finding ourselves using cashless because it has just become a bit ridiculous not doing that.

A thoughtful and well-argued post.

Some thoughts in response.

• Can we really be so certain about where we'll be in 20 years time? Sure, I get the advantages of the cashless economy for capital, but if we've entered a period of perpetual economic crisis, accelerating inequality, precarity and immiseration how we know that the recent rise of cash usage/withdrawal to assist with budgeting won't persist?
• Cash is not just for those that 'need to be under the radar'; there are a significant number of (often) older workers who operate on cash payments and work below the tax threshold.
• Adoption of cash payments has been rising lately.
• I tend to agree that no foreseeable government in the UK will regulate to compel businesses to accept cash, but if we don't ask/pressure/lobby at all, they certainly won't.
• Again, I agree cash is no utopia, but a significant excluded minority not having the means to engage with the market for water, food, clothing, shelter and energy is a dystopia that we must guard against.
• Individual action might not make much difference to the trend, but I'm not seeing much to convince me that there's any alternative to concerted consumer behaviour that punishes businesses that exclude by refusing cash.
• Disappointing to see my personal decision to champion cash use as ridiculous.

 

[Cid]

A thoughtful and well-argued post.

Some thoughts in response.

• Can we really be so certain about where we'll be in 20 years time? Sure, I get the advantages of the cashless economy for capital, but if we've entered a period of perpetual economic crisis, accelerating inequality, precarity and immiseration how we know that the recent rise of cash usage/withdrawal to assist with budgeting won't persist?
• Cash is not just for those that 'need to be under the radar'; there are a significant number of (often) older workers who operate on cash payments and work below the tax threshold.
• Adoption of cash payments has been rising lately.
• I tend to agree that no foreseeable government in the UK will regulate to compel businesses to accept cash, but if we don't ask/pressure/lobby at all, they certainly won't.
• Again, I agree cash is no utopia, but a significant excluded minority not having the means to engage with the market for water, food, clothing, shelter and energy is a dystopia that we must guard against.
• Individual action might not make much difference to the trend, but I'm not seeing much to convince me that there's any alternative to concerted consumer behaviour that punishes businesses that exclude by refusing cash.
• Disappointing to see my personal decision to champion cash use as ridiculous.

I might come back to some of these, though I think we're probably at the point here where much of it is 'it's arguable and it depends'. We're not going to predict the future. But just on your last point, all I mean is that for me it would be ridiculous to use cash out of principle. I do almost all my banking stuff on my phone... Literally no-one I know uses cash on a regular basis... The places we go to eat often don't take cash at all. Even in terms of supermarket shops you have to go out of your way to do it. It would be a pain for both me and whoever I happened to be with if I started trying to do everything with cash.

 

[brogdale]

I might come back to some of these, though I think we're probably at the point here where much of it is 'it's arguable and it depends'. We're not going to predict the future. But just on your last point, all I mean is that for me it would be ridiculous to use cash out of principle. I do almost all my banking stuff on my phone... Literally no-one I know uses cash on a regular basis... The places we go to eat often don't take cash at all. Even in terms of supermarket shops you have to go out of your way to do it. It would be a pain for both me and whoever I happened to be with if I started trying to do everything with cash.

I'm still not convinced by the 'ridiculous' description you attach to your imagined use of cash; inconvenient, time-consuming and frustrating, (maybe?), might be more appropriate...but whoever said that showing solidarity with the marginalised was easy or convenient. I'm sure you don't mean to come across as such, but all this "the places we go to eat" stuff sounds pretty smug and comfortable. If more people asked these folk to take cash and turned on their heels at a refusal, they'd soon respond to consumer demand. And wtf is all this "having to go out of your way" to pay cash at the supermarket? You just hand over the folding.

 

[The39thStep]

I'm still not convinced by the 'ridiculous' description you attach to your imagined use of cash; inconvenient, time-consuming and frustrating, (maybe?), might be more appropriate...but whoever said that showing solidarity with the marginalised was easy or convenient. I'm sure you don't mean to come across as such, but all this "the places we go to eat" stuff sounds pretty smug and comfortable. If more people asked these folk to take cash and turned on their heels at a refusal, they'd soon respond to consumer demand. And wtf is all this "having to go out of your way" to pay cash at the supermarket? You just hand over the folding.

Life of Old Riley by the sound of it

 

[Cid]

Life of Old Riley by the sound of it

<he said, from the terrace of a small bar in the Portuguese countryside>

 

[The39thStep]

<he said, from the terrace of a small bar in the Portuguese countryside>

Actually, I'm at home. The small bar with the terrace in the Portuguese countryside that takes cash and cards is closed Sundays.