the all new 2005 who's taking a trip to holloway thread

[Col_Buendia]

Also the bonkers brigade (primmos, 911-anoids) should not be welcome.

Seconded (again!). But as I was saying above about the animosity levels, perhaps immediately setting out the stall as to who is *not* welcome is somewhat unnecessary... although I'd share your feelings wrt the 911-aloons. A certain tolerance of difference is surely intrinsic to anarchist thought, no?

OK, so who is prepared to step up to the line and start work on this proposal to make the bookfair a 2-dayer? Where should this discussion be taken to make it a practical possibility?

 

[sovietpop]

well it looks to me like you, Taxomo Welf, Top Dog, Red and Black, an Monty have expressed and interest. I don't know where you are all located, but you could exchange e-mails and see if between the five of you, you think you might be able to put it together... and maybe there are more here who would also be interested in giving a hand out...

edit to add: set up a mailing list to deal with the practical organisation (date, venue, agenda, publicity).

 

[Taxamo Welf]

first off, no, i couldn't organise a riot in a brewery

but second off, the bookfair is organised by the same group each year i believe; if we were to set one up it would be outside and against theirs...

 

[montevideo]

well it looks to me like you, Taxomo Welf, Top Dog, Red and Black, an Monty have expressed and interest. I don't know where you are all located, but you could exchange e-mails and see if between the five of you, you think you might be able to put it together... and maybe there are more here who would also be interested in giving a hand out...

edit to add: set up a mailing list to deal with the practical organisation (date, venue, agenda, publicity).

strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.

 

[sovietpop]

but second off, the bookfair is organised by the same group each year i believe; if we were to set one up it would be outside and against theirs...

I don't see it quite that way. The bookfair does what is says on the tin. It is
extreemly successful within its own framework. So I don't see this as being in opposition to the bookfair, but as a complementary and seperate event ... which is why I think it should be on a different weekend (ideally after the bookfair, so you can use the bookfair to draw people to the second event .. "now you've bought the books, next discuss the politics")

 

[sovietpop]

strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.

I missed the end of the meeting, did they talk about actually making it happen. It seems to me that quite a few people seem to would like this type of event to exist, but nobody wants to be the one to actually put into into place (or am I wrong in this, this is what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there didn't seem to enough enegry around).

 

[Col_Buendia]

I'd be into helping organise something like this, but being in Cardiff doesn't help with physical proximity...

This is only an idea, but it seems to me that it is an interesting idea about *expanding* the role & function of the bookfair. If that is the case (and not saying it is, some people seem to think we are talking about a separate event), then the first matter in hand would surely be the one of etiquette, of talking to the current bookfair organisers (who do a great job, ta to them for a nice do on Sat, shame the strippograms got out of control after, eh?) and seeing if they were into some new people organising a sort of bolt-on to the current bookfair. If they were, then we could take it from there. I certainly would like the idea of something like a theory/practice organising structure to the workshops/debates, ideally (imo) over two days.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I missed the end of the meeting, did they talk about actually making it happen. It seems to me that quite a few people seem to would like this type of event to exist, but nobody wants to be the one to actually put into into place

i'd love to be the one, but i don't have thr experience or knowledge. Interestingly, eeryone else i think of as being able to organise something of this sort, would be so hated by other parts of the movement it would be hard to get off the ground. Frinsyance, the wombles excel at organising big meetings, but look at the stick they get here - and give out mind.

 

[Col_Buendia]

strangely this was the whole idea of the anarchist assembly was trying to achieve.

Monte, I presume you are talking about this:

1-2.00 Anarchist Assembly.
An invitation for an open dialogue between anarchist federations/groups/individuals to discuss how we as anarchists and anti-authoritarians involve ourselves with social, political and community issues on a local, national & international level, how we co-ordinate our
activities and work together to promote anarchist initiatives and ideas, putting those ideas into practical and effective everyday use.

I missed all the bloody meetings cos I arrived late from the principality, but if you were there, and feel there is a cross-over with ideas on this thread, do you wanna give us a quick feedback on what was discussed and what concrete proposals came out of the meeting?

 

[Col_Buendia]

i'd love to be the one, but i don't have thr experience or knowledge.

But that'd be no block to discovering them

And if the event that we are talking about starts off as a bolt-on to the bookfair, then you aren't faced with the challenge of organising a complete stand-alone anarchist conference from scratch... perhaps the bookfair organisers would be prepared to allow a nascent @ assembly to be piggy-backed onto the bookfair for a year or two to give it a bit of breathing space and see if the idea is a goer.

 

[In Bloom]

evolvement

http://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...q=define:+evolvement&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

 

[The Black Hand]

Got to say George Orwell was right - when I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.

It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... The locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too...

As for the stunt in whetherspoons I have a dual pov, on the one hand the movement was socialising in a positive manner, on the other I can see the attempt at the prank. Who here has not tried to provoke the old bill anyway? I can remember trying to flip a flat cap off in my youth, jabbing the cop on the forehead, and not getting nicked ... Or am I just an anarchist

AS for the conference idea Taxamo, it would be good... 2 days in big tents (books, food, beer, video, tents as well) in Clissold park next summer gets my vote, with a proper agenda, note takers, and progression built in.

Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...

 

[montevideo]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...q=define:+evolvement&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

evolvement: NOUN: a progression from a simple form to a more complex one

http://www.bartleby.com/62/44/E0554400.html

 

[max_freakout]

In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP...

In other words getting a truncheon over your head in a conflict that you think is completely pointless is a worthwhile thing to do?? "regardless of how something has kicked off"??

 

[absinthe]

aGot to say George Orwell was right - bwhen I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.

It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... cThe locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too...

As for the stunt in whetherspoons I have a dual pov, on the one hand the movement was socialising in a positive manner, on the other I can see the attempt at the prank. dWho here has not tried to provoke the old bill anyway? eI can remember trying to flip a flat cap off in my youth, f jabbing the cop on the forehead, and not getting nicked ...g Or am I just an anarchist

AS for the conference idea Taxamo, it would be good... 2 days in big tents (books, food, beer, video, tents as well) in Clissold park next summer gets my vote, with a proper agenda, note takers, and progression built in.

Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...

a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.

b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.

c. All the 'locals'? How do you know? Did you conduct a survey?

d. The crusties with the CD-player were provoking the under-paid and over-worked Wetherspoons workers, not the police.

e. Did you succeed in breaking some poor old dear's catflap off her door?

f. You claim you assaulted a policeman by hitting him in the face, yet did not get arrested. You're either lying, or you did it whilst a baby in the pram.

g. If vandalising old ladies' homes is anarchism, keep it.

It would be considered polite if you could outline the details of your action against the aforementioned little old lady's catflap, and what you were campaigning against.

 

[blamblam]

a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.

b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.

c. All the 'locals'? How do you know? Did you conduct a survey?

d. The crusties with the CD-player were provoking the under-paid and over-worked Wetherspoons workers, not the police.

e. Did you succeed in breaking some poor old dear's catflap off her door?

f. You claim you assaulted a policeman by hitting him in the face, yet did not get arrested. You're either lying, or you did it whilst a baby in the pram.

g. If vandalising old ladies' homes is anarchism, keep it.

It would be considered polite if you could outline the details of your action against the aforementioned little old lady's catflap, and what you were campaigning against.

(Er I think he means a cop's hat, not an old lady's cat flap)

And if you learned more from rude crusties playing shite music in pub than any books you got, I think you got the wrong books...

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Got to say George Orwell was right - when I see a worker in conflict with the police I know whose side I'm on... If only so called class struggle anarchists (communists/Marxists/Autonomists - submit your own preference) thought similar In those seconds regardless of how something has kicked off, you have a choice, either join in with the crowd on an equal basis, or stand at the back and scoff. Those who think they can choose which confrontation they can have because 'it must be perfect' have as little hope of playing a role in the revolution as the SWP.

It is confrontation that teaches more than all the books and mags at the bookfair , and also sorts the wheat from the chaff, those who can mix it from those who can't... It is confrontation that has given the @/left hope in the time following J18, from Seattle to Genoa and beyond... The locals from the estate opposite were joining in on Holloway road too...

As for the stunt in whetherspoons I have a dual pov, on the one hand the movement was socialising in a positive manner, on the other I can see the attempt at the prank. Who here has not tried to provoke the old bill anyway? I can remember trying to flip a flat cap off in my youth, jabbing the cop on the forehead, and not getting nicked ... Or am I just an anarchist

AS for the conference idea Taxamo, it would be good... 2 days in big tents (books, food, beer, video, tents as well) in Clissold park next summer gets my vote, with a proper agenda, note takers, and progression built in.

Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...

Sorry but I think you will lose out on the essential spontanaity if there is a proper agenda.

 

[montevideo]

Monte, I presume you are talking about this:


I missed all the bloody meetings cos I arrived late from the principality, but if you were there, and feel there is a cross-over with ideas on this thread, do you wanna give us a quick feedback on what was discussed and what concrete proposals came out of the meeting?

aye that's the one. I too missed the meeting, which i should've been facilitating (which didn't go down too well), so can't really give a first hand account. Maybe some others on here who went could give their impressions.

What i can tell you is the idea behind it (which may or may not have come out on the day) is that these assemblies would allow us to come together to develop collective strategies, co-ordinate activities & contribute to any ongoing struggles from a certain political tradition. The idea would be it split in half - ideas (first one, for example, would be the increased authoritarian nature of the british state - increase in police powers, detention without trial, shoot to kill, the introduction of various means of social control, asbo's, id cards, etc) & practical (how would & could we contribute to, for example, gate gourmet dispute).

These are the basic premises from which hopefully some sort of dialogue, discussion & sense of purpose could emerge. The important feature of the assemblies would have a definite theme we could come together around & setting up of practical groupings to co-ordinate responses, strategies to ongoing situations. Beyond that it'd up to the people who attended to shape & take it further.

 

[In Bloom]

evolvement: NOUN: a progression from a simple form to a more complex one

http://www.bartleby.com/62/44/E0554400.html

What's wrong with "development" or "change"? I smell pretentious bullshit...

 

[absinthe]

aye that's the one. I too missed the meeting, which i should've been facilitating

What do you mean 'facilitating'? Are you in the management consultancy game?

 

[Col_Buendia]

@ monte: so, you missed the meeting Well, cheers for the synopsis, although do you reckon you could find out if there was any concrete action taken? For example, if they decided to set up an email list, as sovietpop has suggested here, then there wouldn't be much point in replicating that. This, though, is the thorny bit

The important feature of the assemblies would have a definite theme we could come together around & setting up of practical groupings to co-ordinate responses, strategies to ongoing situations.

Dunno about trying to agree a "theme" or whatever before hand, but perhaps if a start was made on a concrete plan, people would be less likely to want to scupper it with endless ideological nitpicking and be more likely to lend a hand? (naivety alert!) Anyway, perhaps you could suss out if there are any plans afoot as a result of the meeting and post up any links/public emails here?

What's wrong with "development" or "change"? I smell pretentious bullshit...

@ In Bloom: and your point is? Have you anything constructive to add, or shall we return this thread to the handbag fest of several pages ago? Get a grip.

What do you mean 'facilitating'? Are you in the management consultancy game?

@ absinthe: I've heard "facilitating" used constantly for the past few years at meetings, what is your problem with it? It avoids the (traditional) idea that "chairing" a meeting invests the chair with some sort of authority. Do you *really* think it is likely that Monte is "in the management consultancy game"? Go and join In Bloom on the naughty step.

 

[In Bloom]

In Bloom: and your point is? Have you anything constructive to add, or shall we return this thread to the handbag fest of several pages ago? Get a grip.

Pardon me for having a sense of fucking humour.

 

[sovietpop]

hasn't this thread got very long?

.
Cramming everything into one day at the bookfair just stresses everybody out cos you must 'do it all in the one day', there's too much to do...

I'd agree with that.

At the Assembly meeting it seemed to me that people were talking at cross purposes a bit. The assembly seemed to mean different things to different people, with different ideas's being expressed in terms of purpose, location, timing -

Purpose;
- some saw it as a talking shop (me, Wombles and others)
- others seemed to see it as a forum for implementing a unified strategy/ or practical work of some sort
(either particular issues (Wombles), or a particular strategy ( AF) )

Location;
- some were talking about local initiatives
- some were talking about a national initiative

Timing;
- some saw it as something that would occur as the need arose (wombles)
- or on a monthly basis
- or on an annual basis (me).

or at least that is how it looked for me, but I'm open to contradiction...

 

[montevideo]

@ monte: so, you missed the meeting Well, cheers for the synopsis, although do you reckon you could find out if there was any concrete action taken? For example, if they decided to set up an email list, as sovietpop has suggested here, then there wouldn't be much point in replicating that. This, though, is the thorny bit Dunno about trying to agree a "theme" or whatever before hand, but perhaps if a start was made on a concrete plan, people would be less likely to want to scupper it with endless ideological nitpicking and be more likely to lend a hand? (naivety alert!) Anyway, perhaps you could suss out if there are any plans afoot as a result of the meeting and post up any links/public emails here?

well the theme thing is just something to hang the discussion topics on. Ie 'increased authoritarian nature of the british state' could include amongst other things - war on terror (which could include an assessment on our failure to have an impact on the anti war movement), introduction of id cards, police repression, social control (asbo's, new legislation on demonstrations, anti terrorism laws), all relevant & valid. The options remain as open as the imaginations of those involved.

Again i see these things as opening lines of communication rather than offering concrete assertions on particular viewpoints. The ideological nitpicking i think is a symptom of the lack of confidence some groups feel in how their politics are viewed. It can be overcome.

Some guy is looking to do a london wide one, which i think is a start.

PS blame the irish & their lack of revolutionary discipline for me missing the meeting, holding me prisoner in dodgy republican pubs the night before the bookfair, when i should've been putting the booklet together, which i had to finish in the morning & photocopy, hence my non-show. Apologies all round.

PPS Although i do do a good handjive to brown-eyed girl.

 

[sovietpop]

PS blame the irish & their lack of revolutionary discipline for me missing the meeting, holding me prisoner in dodgy republican pubs the night before the bookfair.

 

[The Black Hand]

a. George Orwell was more than co-operative with the police on many an occasion.

b. Reports suggest that it was cyderdelic crusties, not workers, stirring up shit.

c. All the 'locals'? How do you know? Did you conduct a survey?

d. The crusties with the CD-player were provoking the under-paid and over-worked Wetherspoons workers, not the police.

e. Did you succeed in breaking some poor old dear's catflap off her door?

f. You claim you assaulted a policeman by hitting him in the face, yet did not get arrested. You're either lying, or you did it whilst a baby in the pram.

g. If vandalising old ladies' homes is anarchism, keep it.

It would be considered polite if you could outline the details of your action against the aforementioned little old lady's catflap, and what you were campaigning against.

a] Orwells' general point still holds, though I am not suggesting in individual moments of weakness that 'cooperation'/ 'compromise' with the filth is wrong - if I assaulted every cop I saw I would be in prison all the time...

b] your reports are clearly wrong then.

c] there were locals 'coming on down' - ask some of the others who were there...

d] n/a

e] and g] You're clearly dribbling down your chin again.

f] You clearly have no, or next to no experience of class struggle then (tell us when you get the 'key of the door' pls). People I have known have kicked t'owd bill in the balls and got away with it and people DO get 'not guilty' in court sometimes too.

In those moments of confrontation/melee, much becomes possible, and also the pigs do make mistakes...

To icepick, the point I was making was that real confrontation e.g. with the filth down Holloway road, teaches more than the books/mags at the bookfair... Real class struggle is worth far far more than 'televised' (media mediated) ideological revolution, and many agree with me on that one...

 

[absinthe]

d

 

[The Black Hand]

d

Poor didums - that cat you mentioned obviously has got your tongue

 

[blamblam]

Anti-social behaviour =/ class struggle

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Pardon me for having a sense of fucking humour.

sorry, but you weren't joking. i'm sure you do have a sense of humour, but you weren't using it then. The colonels point stands IMVHO