the all new 2005 who's taking a trip to holloway thread

[rednblack]

i'd have to agree with gurrier^

and remember the problems on libcom are down largely to two individuals one of whom is an admin, and is calming down a bit i think - the other is completely out of control though...

imo

i do think on the whole libcom is excellent though

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I disagree a lot. The internet is replete with trolls. You deal with them by stopping them or they dominate. 1 troll can post the word 'cock' a million times a day, whereas it takes a lot of time and effort to write something thoughtful. If the 'cock' to 'thoughtful' ration is too high, that will be the preception of the board and people who are constructive and serious won't bother.

The indymedia experience of 'free speech' provides a wealth of evidence that you can not rely on the weight of numbers to deal with disruption. Every indymedia site that adopted a free speech policy (by allowing contentless abuse, racist posts, etc) collapsed quickly. There are loads of other examples out there, from usenet, to slashdot and wikipedia which all lead to the same conclusion.

To be honest, I think the lack of willingness to tackle this problem - leaving it up to 'weight of numbers', ie somebody else's problem - is a misapplication of anarchist ideas of freedom. Those who put work into the project have a right to set the basic rules of association and everybody else then has the choice of whether to freely associate within that project. Leaving it up to the punters on the internet, means that you effectively give a much greater say to immature people who don't give a shit about the project but who have too much time on their hands and are amused by being disruptive - or trolls, to put it succinctly.

My biggest problem with libcom is that, to the casual observer, it makes anarchists look like a bunch of teenage h4x0Rz - fuk de RuLeZ types, despite the fact that I know that the vast majority of people who post there are nothing like that and respect them and am interested in what they have to say. For example, I would not consider directing my mother or my next door neighbour there as a place where she might acquaint herself with modern anarchism. I think this highlights a certain lack of ambition on the part of anarchists, a certain comfort with existing as a sub-culture. It's fine if you are familiar with the scene, and know that people are taking the piss in the style of the sub-culture. But the internet is as public as you can get and there is a vast audience who are looking at all the 'cocks' and many inevitably come to the conclusion that anarchism isn't serious, just another funny sub-culture. This frustrates me a lot as I think anarchism is an extremely serious movement and that we have arguments that can appeal to an enormous audience as long as we take ourselves and our politics seriously.

I understand that there is a strong liberal individualist strand to modern anarchism which doesn't hold ideas like discipline or collective responsibility in high esteem. Rather old-fashionedly I think that, in public, people who call themselves anarchists have a duty to act as ambassadors of anarchism and this extends to the internet. In fairness, there are a fair number of posters who do this admirably on this and other boards, but I don't think that the libcom collective have taken nearly enough steps to try to ensure that the board as a whole serves this function, rather than being a place where anarchists can form a comfortable and exclusionary sub-culture.

edited to add: I'm talking about the boards, rather than the overall site, which is a much better thing altogether

this is an excellent post even if you have very little experience of libcom, the part about acting as ambassadors =

nice on gurrier

 

[Taxamo Welf]

just remembered

When the cops were trying to clear the street and were roundly being told that maybe they should just leave, one copper shouted at the crowd as justification for waving a steel bar at them, 'We've had beer thrown at us!'



I think he meant to say something more along the lines of beer glasses or something. But he didn't say that the big silly.

 

[durruti02]

a] Orwells' general point still holds, though I am not suggesting in individual moments of weakness that 'cooperation'/ 'compromise' with the filth is wrong - if I assaulted every cop I saw I would be in prison all the time...

b] your reports are clearly wrong then.

c] there were locals 'coming on down' - ask some of the others who were there...

d] n/a

e] and g] You're clearly dribbling down your chin again.

f] You clearly have no, or next to no experience of class struggle then (tell us when you get the 'key of the door' pls). People I have known have kicked t'owd bill in the balls and got away with it and people DO get 'not guilty' in court sometimes too.

In those moments of confrontation/melee, much becomes possible, and also the pigs do make mistakes...

To icepick, the point I was making was that real confrontation e.g. with the filth down Holloway road, teaches more than the books/mags at the bookfair... Real class struggle is worth far far more than 'televised' (media mediated) ideological revolution, and many agree with me on that one...

both of atticas posts are bollox!! .. and to call yourself rebeccas child .. they'll be turning in their graves in the valleys at your confusion between genuine w/c resistance and the actions of a few pissed so called activists

iam not suggesting that the book fair is the class struggle .. far from it .. but a stupid off onholloway road ..class struggle?? don't be daft ..

 

[The Black Hand]

both of atticas posts are bollox!! .. and to call yourself rebeccas child .. they'll be turning in their graves in the valleys at your confusion between genuine w/c resistance and the actions of a few pissed so called activists

iam not suggesting that the book fair is the class struggle .. far from it .. but a stupid off onholloway road ..class struggle?? don't be daft ..

Well we disagree don't we then - the class struggle belongs to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour.... E.P. Thompson again

AS for Rebeccas children, they weren't the respectable types you appear to think... Rebeccas children, like the Scotch Cattle, knew who their class enemies were, and took them on when they could, always looking to spread the class struggle. You know, the one where people actually do some fighting for a change, rather than the 'ideological' sort which will change nothing. For your information there was some oppressive policing in Wales at an action recently (See latest 'Gagged' produced by Cardiff/south wales anarchists), and so I am sure Rebeccas children, and Dic Pendryn, are with those who chose to fight back rather than turn their backs.

 

[The Black Hand]

catch and I are still waiting for an answer

You'll be waiting for a very long time then, cos I have already said my position in posts. However, i will add a coupla things...

The movement doesn't have to explain the minutiae of every 'problematic situation', and a genuine movement of working class people will have plenty of these anyway. You, catch, Af, SOl fed, and most of the rest of the movement really must get beyond the obsession for purity. There are thousands of bigger offs each year than the one at the bookfair, caused by all sorts of minor personal issues - but who here knows about the trouble in Newcastle city centre after a Newcastle 'fan' threw a brick at a bus of disabled Sunderland fans after the derby match recently? Far more important to have a political position on this rather than the non event in the wetherspoons. That's because of the simplistic politics (right/wrong) of the anarchist movement it doesn't know what is politics and what is not.

That doesn't mean that the trouble on Holloway road wasn't worth participating in, while 'there are those who choose to stand at the back and scoff'. Didn't 'do or die' say there were those who actually do the fighting and those who talk about it too... The rights and wrongs of their comments about the anti globalisation struggle I will discuss elsewhere however.

 

[The Black Hand]

TBH I think you (Durutti) share some of the political preconceptions of the old left - Eg RA, reflected in simplistic right/wrong judgemental assumptions. Here's Hardt and Negri (Multitude);

“Most central… is the conceptual lack concerning what the left [working class] is and what it can become. The primary old models are thoroughly discredited… Others accuse… [@ of] focussing attention on merely cultural issues to the exclusion of properly political and economic ones… Such accusations are significant symptoms of defeat [even if they pretend to have a new approach] symptoms of the fact that no new ideas have emerged that are adequate to address the crisis. If the left [@] is to be resurrected and reformed it will only be done on the basis of new practices, new forms of organisation, and new concepts…
The multitude is one concept, in our view, that can contribute to the task of resurrecting or reforming or, really, reinventing the Left by naming a form of political organisation and a political project. We do not propose the concept as a political directive… but rather a way of giving name to what is already going on and grasping the existing social and political tendency.”

 

[rednblack]

i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night

 

[revol68]

TBH I think you (Durutti) share some of the political preconceptions of the old left - Eg RA, reflected in simplistic right/wrong judgemental assumptions. Here's Hardt and Negri (Multitude);

“Most central… is the conceptual lack concerning what the left [working class] is and what it can become. The primary old models are thoroughly discredited… Others accuse… [@ of] focussing attention on merely cultural issues to the exclusion of properly political and economic ones… Such accusations are significant symptoms of defeat [even if they pretend to have a new approach] symptoms of the fact that no new ideas have emerged that are adequate to address the crisis. If the left [@] is to be resurrected and reformed it will only be done on the basis of new practices, new forms of organisation, and new concepts…
The multitude is one concept, in our view, that can contribute to the task of resurrecting or reforming or, really, reinventing the Left by naming a form of political organisation and a political project. We do not propose the concept as a political directive… but rather a way of giving name to what is already going on and grasping the existing social and political tendency.”

having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.

 

[Top Dog]

You'll be waiting for a very long time then, cos I have already said my position in posts. However, i will add a coupla things...

The movement doesn't have to explain the minutiae of every 'problematic situation', and a genuine movement of working class people will have plenty of these anyway. You, catch, Af, SOl fed, and most of the rest of the movement really must get beyond the obsession for purity. There are thousands of bigger offs each year than the one at the bookfair, caused by all sorts of minor personal issues - but who here knows about the trouble in Newcastle city centre after a Newcastle 'fan' threw a brick at a bus of disabled Sunderland fans after the derby match recently? Far more important to have a political position on this rather than the non event in the wetherspoons. That's because of the simplistic politics (right/wrong) of the anarchist movement it doesn't know what is politics and what is not.

That doesn't mean that the trouble on Holloway road wasn't worth participating in, while 'there are those who choose to stand at the back and scoff'. Didn't 'do or die' say there were those who actually do the fighting and those who talk about it too... The rights and wrongs of their comments about the anti globalisation struggle I will discuss elsewhere however.

so rather than address the point you respond with more verbiage and rhetoric... so be it. It does nothing to enhance or develop anything you've said, but perhaps thats because on this you have nothing to say. All i will say here is, is youre trying to have it both ways: implying that what led up to people being thrown out of the pub was a personal issue (because you have yet to make an adequate rebuttal of my point to you), yet the skirmish with the cops was the class war in full swing. Oh please.

So go ahead and pigeonhole those of us that argue against this all together in the same box so that you can take us down with one devastating (read: lazy) straw man critique... Its really not very convincing tho is it?

 

[Top Dog]

i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night

But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?

 

[revol68]

saying that, there is something quite nice about Negri's flowering language and quasi religious rehtoric.

 

[sovietpop]

having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.

Jesus Revol, good point. I love it when you talk politics.

 

[knopf]

But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?

.... not to mention that a few of the more malodourous bookfairees could have done with standing a bit closer to Occam's Razor.

 

[The Black Hand]

i can't believe you just quoted that in a row about a minor pub skirmish on a saturday night

I was talking about his ideas more generally that just down the pub... then it becomes apparent.

 

[The Black Hand]

having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.

Got to say that your attempt at 'critique' is as empty as the old lefts political analysis... nul point.

 

[rednblack]

.... not to mention that a few of the more malodourous bookfairees could have done with standing a bit closer to Occam's Razor.

you werent even there, i thought you were out buying taps with the missus

 

[revol68]

does it get you hard saying Ole Left? I mean I think Negri and Hardt have some good points, the only problem is they have been made better and more coherently by others.

But seriously the "multitude" is possibly one of the most cackhanded attempts to take a social factory analysis and present it as something completely new, good for booksales but shite analysis.

So whats so empty about my critique?

 

[The Black Hand]

so rather than address the point you respond with more verbiage and rhetoric... so be it. It does nothing to enhance or develop anything you've said, but perhaps thats because on this you have nothing to say. All i will say here is, is youre trying to have it both ways: implying that what led up to people being thrown out of the pub was a personal issue (because you have yet to make an adequate rebuttal of my point to you), yet the skirmish with the cops was the class war in full swing. Oh please.

So go ahead and pigeonhole those of us that argue against this all together in the same box so that you can take us down with one devastating (read: lazy) straw man critique... Its really not very convincing tho is it?

Well, the events in the wetherspoon can be seen as a minor personal incident, you see them differently, up to you. I would prefer to talk about important events rather than minor detail. It's called a 'relevant abstraction', and there's a book called "Making histories" which explains not by Thompson you'll be glad to hear. I never saw the ghetto blaster incident but I was in the pub and saw all the action outside, being next to some people who were arrested later at certain points... It wasn't the 'class struggle' in full swing - you drama queen you - but it was class struggle... as are all battles that involve the old bill... it is impossible to say that class struggle doesn't involve the police in this or other incidents cos of the historical materialist relations that the police are grounded in...

TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing... I am happy with mine as usual

 

[kropotkin]

But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?

Ha! Quite...

That pissed me off no end when reading Empire.
"Negri, please stop masturbating and just say something on topic".

 

[revol68]

More Images from the Class Struggle?

 

[Top Dog]

TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing... I am happy with mine as usual

then im happy for you.

But i wouldnt dream of conflating anything ive said on this thread as being anything more than opinion... analysis? of this? give us a break!

Anyway - i mustnt keep you any longer from your class struggling... i'll let you get back to the books

 

[The Black Hand]

then im happy for you.

But i wouldnt dream of conflating anything ive said on this thread as being anything more than opinion... analysis? of this? give us a break!

Anyway - i mustnt keep you any longer from your class struggling... i'll let you get back to the books

But analysis IS opinion...

 

[knopf]

you werent even there, i thought you were out buying taps with the missus

Typical of the last-century left. Still in thrall to the metaphysics of presence.

 

[revol68]

is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?

 

[Top Dog]

But analysis IS opinion...

...backed up with some semblance of evidence. Is analysis just opinion?

 

[rednblack]

is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?

one and the same

 

[durruti02]

Well we disagree don't we then - the class struggle belongs to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour.... E.P. Thompson again

AS for Rebeccas children, they weren't the respectable types you appear to think... Rebeccas children, like the Scotch Cattle, knew who their class enemies were, and took them on when they could, always looking to spread the class struggle. You know, the one where people actually do some fighting for a change, rather than the 'ideological' sort which will change nothing. For your information there was some oppressive policing in Wales at an action recently (See latest 'Gagged' produced by Cardiff/south wales anarchists), and so I am sure Rebeccas children, and Dic Pendryn, are with those who chose to fight back rather than turn their backs.

"to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour" .. indeed ..what labour are we talking here .. mental or physical

who said i thought rebeccas children were respectable? but they were w/c and involved at the face so to speak.. .. and while it is true that these currents led into the later Tu's in some ways they stood opposed and outside .. a la Germinal .. and you use Dic penderyn's name to justify your arguement over a bunch of drunk activists in a pub fight??? really mate that is an insult isn't it??

anyway so you're sticking with the old boneite class analysis that the proletariat is defined as the concious w/c vanguard??? i.e. you and a few others???? .. though i suspect he no longer belives that

as long as we stick to this blanquist/leninst elitist crap @'s and all will remain isolated from the w/c ..

 

[durruti02]

having read Empire and Multitude I can safely say that on the issue of how the proletariat (i refuse to bow to liberal hegemony and use the meaningless multitude) organises itslef, Negri has fuck all interesting to say. Uncritical wanking over anti capitalist activist groups, which fails to grasp that instead of being the recomposition of the "multitude" is rather another fractured layer, whose relatively previleged position is removed from the particular and crudely cut and pasted into a post marxist catholic rhetorical narrative.

good post

 

[blamblam]

is Attica Gangster per chance or just another crude interpreter of operismo?

Thankfully there's only one of them!