the all new 2005 who's taking a trip to holloway thread

[montevideo]

But RnB, more important still, what would Spinoza or even St Francis of Assisi have made of these post-bookfair events?

"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."

- big bill haywood


///snigger///

 

[The Black Hand]

...backed up with some semblance of evidence. Is analysis just opinion?

Most if not all analysis is opinion dressed up as 'fact' Certainly what passes for the anarchist movement produces almost without fail constantly wildly inadequate propaganda (and all literature is propaganda)... That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too. I was arguing that for those taking part in the conflict on Holloway road the action was meaningful in a class struggle framework, basic existentialism. Again not difficult, nor extreme analysis...

It's a fact that what passes for standards within the movement is woeful (both in terms of its decision making processes and its magazines), time for honesty comrades.

 

[revol68]

yes and when i was fuckin my fist this morning i was thinkin i was fucking your ma.

Doesn't mean I was.

or does it

 

[Emma Herself]

Ewww

 

[revol68]

apologies, that was crass.

 

[The Black Hand]

"to all who stay in the terrain and mix it with their labour" .. indeed ..what labour are we talking here .. mental or physical

who said i thought rebeccas children were respectable? but they were w/c and involved at the face so to speak.. .. and while it is true that these currents led into the later Tu's in some ways they stood opposed and outside .. a la Germinal .. and you use Dic penderyn's name to justify your arguement over a bunch of drunk activists in a pub fight??? really mate that is an insult isn't it??

anyway so you're sticking with the old boneite class analysis that the proletariat is defined as the concious w/c vanguard??? i.e. you and a few others???? .. though i suspect he no longer belives that

as long as we stick to this blanquist/leninst elitist crap @'s and all will remain isolated from the w/c ..

To answer your last 2 paragraphs - 'you've got it all wrong comrade'... No I wasn't saying they were the vanguard, I was saying it was class struggle though, just one small particular part of it, with their own experiences.

You're assuming a lot of elitism in my argument when it isn't there. In case you're interested both Gramsci and Thompson said the law was something worth fighting over; crime is a consistently renegotiated category historically, it is not fixed, and therefore if you want to have purchase on class struggle you have to look at the struggles over the form, content and application of law...

 

[LLETSA]

Is this English or classtrugglese? Or what?

That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too.

No 'verbiage' there, I see.

 

[Top Dog]

Most if not all analysis is opinion dressed up as 'fact' Certainly what passes for the anarchist movement produces almost without fail constantly wildly inadequate propaganda (and all literature is propaganda)...

and would you include Class War (the paper) in that? Did you write anything for the latest issue, out of interest?

That you could accuse me of 'verbiage' is an example of this - what I am saying is basic though contemporary conflict analysis in relatively simple language, in a few sentences. Therefore you accusing me of 'verbiage' is pure drivel, as for the rhetoric accusation, that is also baloney too. I was arguing that for those taking part in the conflict on Holloway road the action was meaningful in a class struggle framework, basic existentialism. Again not difficult, nor extreme analysis...

No - its as plain as the nose on your face what it is... its grandstanding. I mean... really... lets try and find you a little perspective here as you havent been able to discover it for yourself...

We're talking about the actions of some @ pissheads in a pub which ended up with them leaving others to have a barney with the bill... and you're throwing H & N quotes out around the shop... and you've ordained my feelings regarding the fracas as an "ahistorical, atheoretical" analysis <very generous, given i havent provided you with any footnotes or a bibliography. Or perhaps you're saying that because I havent eh?> Good grief. Step back a minute and re-read the thread...

It's a fact that what passes for standards within the movement is woeful (both in terms of its decision making processes and its magazines)

well i wouldnt disagree with you here but sadly you've failed to demonstrate what marks your endeavors out as any different

 

[Top Dog]

"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."

putting words in my mouth monty?... i never descibed the >>numpty pissheads<< as liberals

 

[rednblack]

No 'verbiage' there, I see.

 

[LLETSA]

Don't thank me-thank him....

 

[charlie mowbray]

"A liberal is the guy who leaves the room when a fight starts."

- big bill haywood


///snigger///

Funny, then, that he left the USA sharpish to go to Russia to avoid a very long prison sentence!!
And I'm not condemning him for that at all, merely throwing light on such a statement being used so crassly by you.

 

[The Black Hand]

No - its as plain as the nose on your face what it is... its grandstanding. I mean... really... lets try and find you a little perspective here as you havent been able to discover it for yourself...

We're talking about the actions of some @ pissheads in a pub which ended up with them leaving others to have a barney with the bill... and you're throwing H & N quotes out around the shop... and you've ordained my feelings regarding the fracas as an "ahistorical, atheoretical" analysis <very generous, given i havent provided you with any footnotes or a bibliography. Or perhaps you're saying that because I havent eh?> Good grief. Step back a minute and re-read the thread...

well i wouldnt disagree with you here but sadly you've failed to demonstrate what marks your endeavors out as any different

Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure, and that includes all those not in groups too, but who float around without accountability

So grandstanding is 'talking about things in an historical and theoretical framework' is it? it seems that not only is there a Poverty of theory there is a poverty of history too, E.P. Thompson wouldn't be pleased...

I have a perspective, you have yours, they're different, no better, no worse, just different. I situate what I think in relationship with my entire life history and experience, and this is another small episode... I have chosen to specialise in 'crime', others choose differently, that is their prerogative.

As for grandstanding, if I am that grand then so be it I call it as I see it. You did not display any theory nor history, and therefore, as i always do, I situate conflict in a framework. I don't view epochs in an absolutist manner, there is always continuity (as Thompson says), and differences too, but they evolve...

And please do stop associating me with Class War, that is lazy. I have done several other things apart from CW, in other groups and on my own, and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...

 

[revol68]

Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure, and that includes all those not in groups too, but who float around without accountability

So grandstanding is 'talking about things in an historical and theoretical framework' is it? it seems that not only is there a Poverty of theory there is a poverty of history too, E.P. Thompson wouldn't be pleased...

I have a perspective, you have yours, they're different, no better, no worse, just different. I situate what I think in relationship with my entire life history and experience, and this is another small episode... I have chosen to specialise in 'crime', others choose differently, that is their prerogative.

As for grandstanding, if I am that grand then so be it I call it as I see it. You did not display any theory nor history, and therefore, as i always do, I situate conflict in a framework. I don't view epochs in an absolutist manner, there is always continuity (as Thompson says), and differences too, but they evolve...

And please do stop associating me with Class War, that is lazy. I have done several other things apart from CW, in other groups and on my own, and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...

still no response for me then?

Your one sad fuck.

 

[Top Dog]

a little consistency wouldnt go amiss either

first sentence...

Individuals should not be expected to find solutions, nor have the weight of responsibility on their shoulders - I view it as movement failure,

last sentence...

and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...

 

[cats hammers]

still no response for me then?

Your one sad fuck.

I think he's busy facing the class enemy IN THE EYES.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

And please do stop associating me with Class War, that is lazy. I have done several other things apart from CW, in other groups and on my own, and currently apart from my book I have something cooking on a back burner - you may see it one day next year but it does aim to raise the standards...

Which part of this did you put forward attica?

 

[catch]

Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against

 

[sovietpop]

Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against

ah discipline! very good.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Just a note to sovietpop, gurrier, rednblack and others who mentioned libcom's moderating policy - we have a new stricter one in the main area of the site following a discussion in the forums. Only one poster against

If you have a new set of rules why don't you wipe the slate clean and invite Mr Lustbather back?

 

[The Black Hand]

first sentence...
last sentence...

There is no inconsistency - there IS movement failure, it is not individuals...

I am trying to do something that de facto raises the standards together with some others... Of course, the movement has to want to improve too, but I do not expect miracles, infact I don't expect anything that is why I don't reply to children like revol/Letawank. I have decided only to reply to those who I think are worth it.

 

[The Black Hand]

Which part of this did you put forward attica?

I like ale and curry... the Fat cat in Sheffield is worth a trip Or it was when I went some years ago... the Frog and Parot too, though the Heavy Metal pub in the town centre is for the Hardcore only

 

[888]

TBH, it is your analysis which is ahistorical, atheoretical and unconvincing...

Speaking to yourself, The Black Hand?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

did your CD work BTW attica?

 

[The Black Hand]

did your CD work BTW attica?

Yup, ta again.