The 2023 Russian Coup.

[editor]

(((editor)))

Sorry, I'm not getting why you're tagging me here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Sorry, I'm not getting why you're tagging me here.

I would have banned him at hippy tbh…

 

[agricola]

back on the auld days such volte faces were much better handled

Rokossovsky getting pulled out of torture, beatings, mock executions etc because there was now a war on is a perhaps more cheerful example of such a reverse ferret by the state.

 

[jeff_leigh]

Yes, send someone who has just launched a putsch against you to protect another unreliable ally who is also likely to turn against you.

Prigozhin Isn’t in charge of Wagner anymore and after losing his Government Catering contracts and other revenue streams I’d say he’s learned his lesson

 

[BristolEcho]

Sorry, I'm not getting why you're tagging me here.

It was obviously a joke.

Scratch a hippy, and you'll find a hyper-nationalist billionaire mercenary...

To the above comment. Self explanatory really.

 

[JimW]

This commentator seems to think the coup will have a lasting impact:

The person who suffered the most as a result of the mutiny was Putin himself. However confident he may feel in the aftermath, he messed up. He created a monster that escaped from his control and spooked the elites. Everyone saw that the Kremlin was paralyzed with indecision, and that Prigozhin escaped any real punishment. Many are currently wondering whether Putin is the leader Russia needs in difficult times.

Putin’s much-hyped “power vertical” has disappeared. Instead of a strong hand, there are dozens of mini-Prigozhins, and while they may be more predictable than the Wagner leader, they are no less dangerous. All of them know full well that a post-Putin Russia is already here—even as Putin remains in charge—and that it’s time to take up arms and prepare for a battle for power.

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/90275

 

[jeff_leigh]

This commentator seems to think the coup will have a lasting impact:

The Coup basically ended when Putin went on TV and called it Treasonous and that was the moment when Prigozhin realised he’d bitten off more than he could chew, As for escaping any real punishment He’s lost Government Catering contract and the Troll Farms so his finances have taken a hit

 

[RD2003]

Thousands of supporters of the military junta that seized control in Niger in a coup have marched through the streets of the capital waving Russian flags and denouncing former colonial power France.

Demonstrators in Niamey converged on the French embassy and set fire to its doors, stoned the building and burned the country's flags.


Russian mercenary group Wagner is already operating in neighbouring Mali and its boss Yevgeny Prigozhin has hailed the coup as good news and offered his fighters' services.

Niger coup backers wave Russian flags and attack French embassy as Wagner mercenary boss offers support

The mutineers have been given one week to reinstate ousted President Mohamed Bazoum or face sanctions and the possible use of force by West Africa's regional bloc ECOWAS, ramping up pressure on the overthrow plotters.

news.sky.com

 

[kebabking]

The Coup basically ended when Putin went on TV and called it Treasonous and that was the moment when Prigozhin realised he’d bitten off more than he could chew, As for escaping any real punishment He’s lost Government Catering contract and the Troll Farms so his finances have taken a hit

Turn it around.

The UK is at war, and it's not going well. The Commander of 16 Bde has been tweeting every more vitriolic videos of him slagging off Ben Wallace,Tony Radakin and Patrick Sanders for their laziness, incompetence, and corruption.

Without an order to do so he moves half his force from it's wartime position at Weymouth to Army HQ at Andover where he has a televised screaming match with Jim Hockenhall and James Morris - he is armed, they are not, and the whole rank thing looks a lot more horizontal than it normally would.

He then drives, with half the Brigade, up the M3 towards London, while tweeting that he's going to 'clean the Augian stables', and before he gets to Staines his force has shot down half a dozen Apache attack helicopters that have tried to fire on him.

As they get to Thorpe park, Rishi Sunak goes on TV and calls him a traitor. he stops his force, and there's a deal. He retains command of 16 Bde, 16 Bde moves from Weymouth to Catterick, and 16 Bde moves from the command of 1 Division to 3 Division.

Sunak has lunch with him, and confirms that 16 Bde will continue to be the UK's primary 'our of Europe' land force.

Tell me that Sunak looks like an all powerful PM who deals ruthlessly with any threat to his authority, that commander 16 Bde has been destroyed as a quasi-political actor, and any thoughts amongst any of the other formation commanders to try anything similar have be squashed like a wasp under a flip-flop....

 

[two sheds]

The UK is at war, and it's not going well. The Commander of 16 Bde has been tweeting every more vitriolic videos of him slagging off Ben Wallace,Tony Radakin and Patrick Sanders for their laziness, incompetence, and corruption.

Without an order to do so he moves half his force from it's wartime position at Weymouth to Army HQ at Andover where he has a televised screaming match with Jim Hockenhall and James Morris - he is armed, they are not, and the whole rank thing looks a lot more horizontal than it normally would.

He then drives, with half the Brigade, up the M3 towards London,

Up until that last sentence I was thinking "fucking hell I've missed all of this"

 

[jeff_leigh]

Tell me that Sunak looks like an all powerful PM who deals ruthlessly with any threat to his authority, that commander 16 Bde has been destroyed as a quasi-political actor, and any thoughts amongst any of the other formation commanders to try anything similar have be squashed like a wasp under a flip-flop....

Putin has consolidated his power and any talk of him being replaced his merely wishful thinking, Although if he did get replaced it would be by someone that Russia wants not someone the West wants

 

[kebabking]

Putin has consolidated his power and any talk of him being replaced his merely wishful thinking, Although if he did get replaced it would be by someone that Russia wants not someone the West wants

It's interesting that it's difficult to find a single credible Russia Watcher who thinks that Putin has emerged from this episode looking more in control, more powerful, more capable, and more inspiring of loyalty than he did 6 months ago.

Putin's replacement, whoever and whenever that comes, will not be Russia's choice, it will be the choice of a few dozen, very rich, very corrupt people, the vast majority of whom will come from the FSB and it's baleful control of the Russian state, media and politics. They'll then imprison anyone who publicly disagrees and will hold a completely rigged election to confirm their choice.

To think otherwise is embarrassing.

 

[gosub]

Up until that last sentence I was thinking "fucking hell I've missed all of this"

Does explain the roadworks on that bit of the M25. Bloody Sadiq digging up the motorway to keep the tanks out ....Hang on are Cheiftains ULEZ compliant

 

[tim]

It's interesting that it's difficult to find a single credible Russia Watcher who thinks that Putin has emerged from this episode looking more in control, more powerful, more capable, and more inspiring of loyalty than he did 6 months ago.

Putin's replacement, whoever and whenever that comes, will not be Russia's choice, it will be the choice of a few dozen, very rich, very corrupt people, the vast majority of whom will come from the FSB and it's baleful control of the Russian state, media and politics. They'll then imprison anyone who publicly disagrees and will hold a completely rigged election to confirm their choice.

To think otherwise is embarrassing.

Seeing as "Everything has to change, for everything to remain the same." if Putin is pushed out, Navalny could be freed from captivity and sent in to Make Russia Great Again.

 

[krtek a houby]

Seeing as "Everything has to change, for everything to remain the same." if Putin is pushed out, Navalny could be freed from captivity and sent in to Make Russia great Again.

The way some sections of the press bang on, he's some kind of Messiah and a televised release would have him ascend to the ranks of Mandelahood.

Marginally better than bad Vlad, but not that much.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seeing as "Everything has to change, for everything to remain the same." if Putin is pushed out, Navalny could be freed from captivity and sent in to Make Russia Great Again.

Or more likely strangled in his cell at whoever succeeds putin's orders

 

[jeff_leigh]

It's interesting that it's difficult to find a single credible Russia Watcher who thinks that Putin has emerged from this episode looking more in control, more powerful, more capable, and more inspiring of loyalty than he did 6 months ago.

Putin's replacement, whoever and whenever that comes, will not be Russia's choice, it will be the choice of a few dozen, very rich, very corrupt people, the vast majority of whom will come from the FSB and it's baleful control of the Russian state, media and politics. They'll then imprison anyone who publicly disagrees and will hold a completely rigged election to confirm their choice.

To think otherwise is embarrassing.

If you say so

 

[agricola]

Or more likely strangled in his cell at whoever succeeds putin's orders

like what Agrippa Postumus would have been like, if he'd had a twitter account

 

[RD2003]

Putin's replacement, whoever and whenever that comes, will not be Russia's choice, it will be the choice of a few dozen, very rich, very corrupt people, the vast majority of whom will come from the FSB and it's baleful control of the Russian state, media and politics. They'll then imprison anyone who publicly disagrees and will hold a completely rigged election to confirm their choice.

To think otherwise is embarrassing.

Not embarrassing to much of the Russian population however, which, evidence suggests, prefers such an arrangement over the chaos of the Yeltsin era, complete with its plummeting living standards and drastically falling life expectancy. It's completely in line with the historical Russian fear of the kind of systemic disruption which always seems to bring them tragedy. This is why for some years Putin's popularity was genuine and encompassed many among the various groupings that were initially in favour of the upheaval that led to Yeltsin's regime.

Russia's post-Communist ruled course is just one, particularly prominent, example of the way that those who do 'the West's' thinking have displayed an inabililty to grasp the reality that most of the world isn't the west, and a failure to consider that it might, in its majority, not think the same way as they do nor see any particular virtue in 'western values.'

 

[Humberto]

Not embarrassing to much of the Russian population however, which, evidence suggests, prefers such an arrangement over the chaos of the Yeltsin era, complete with its plummeting living standards and drastically falling life expectancy. It's completely in line with the historical Russian fear of the kind of systemic disruption which always seems to bring them tragedy. This is why for some years Putin's popularity was genuine and encompassed many among the various groupings that were initially in favour of the upheaval that led to Yeltsin's regime.

Russia's post-Communist ruled course is just one, particularly prominent, example of the way that those who do 'the West's' thinking have displayed an inabililty to grasp the reality that most of the world isn't the west, and a failure to consider that it might, in its majority, not think the same way as they do nor see any particular virtue in 'western values.'

I think you are twisting facts to suit your argument. We've all done it.

 

[RD2003]

I think you are twisting facts to suit your argument. We've all done it.

There are no clear-cut facts in this discussion, only speculation based on historical precedent.

 

[Humberto]

You: "Evidence suggests" Plutocracy and Oligarchy is preferred to plumetting living standards of Yeltsin among Russians.

Right ok.

I mean I'm sure Russians have more about them but the 'evidence suggests'.

A clear cut fact is that Putin is a war criminal.

 

[tim]

Not embarrassing to much of the Russian population however, which, evidence suggests, prefers such an arrangement over the chaos of the Yeltsin era, complete with its plummeting living standards and drastically falling life expectancy. It's completely in line with the historical Russian fear of the kind of systemic disruption which always seems to bring them tragedy. This is why for some years Putin's popularity was genuine and encompassed many among the various groupings that were initially in favour of the upheaval that led to Yeltsin's regime.

Russia's post-Communist ruled course is just one, particularly prominent, example of the way that those who do 'the West's' thinking have displayed an inabililty to grasp the reality that most of the world isn't the west, and a failure to consider that it might, in its majority, not think the same way as they do nor see any particular virtue in 'western values.'

Not the impression I got from the four Russians I was teaching two weeks ago.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

At least the trains run on time...

 

[RD2003]

Not the impression I got from the four Russians I was teaching two weeks ago.

There's another 145 million(?) to consider however. Many, many of whom are unlikely to be anything like your students in their beliefs, habits and expectations etc.

I know you don't like to hear of my 1988-93 experiences in Russia for some reason, but the kind of people I became acquainted with almost convinced me that there was 'another Russia,' as they say. I now suspect that subsequent events drove many of them into the Putin/ nationalist camp, having already noticed that being in favour of 'liberal' change didn't mean you weren't, at bottom, a 'Great Russian Chauvanist.' Not all but some of them, as changing events bring about changing alliances. The Russia that the self-styled Soviet liberals envisaged (which was bound up with not a small amount of personal ambition and cynicism on the part of people who understood perfectly the nature of their own society) proved an utter disaster, and explains, amongst other things, the Ukraine war.

In my experience, most Russians tell a westerner what they assume they want to hear. The same goes for Ukrainians-they did, after all, grow up in the same society.

 

[RD2003]

You: "Evidence suggests" Plutocracy and Oligarchy is preferred to plumetting living standards of Yeltsin among Russians.

Right ok.

I mean I'm sure Russians have more about them but the 'evidence suggests'.

A clear cut fact is that Putin is a war criminal.

It's well documented that Putin's early mass popularity was linked to a rejection of the social and economic disasters of the Yeltsin period. What you might feel you're sure about Russians doesn't really come into it, as everybody knows that loads of Russians reject Putin, possibly increasingly so. But for one thing they don't all do so for the same reason.

Putin might be a war criminal. In that he joins a long, international, inglorious line, and it's only tenuously connected to what is currently being discussed in the thread.

 

[krtek a houby]

What you might feel you're sure about Russians doesn't really come into it

In my experience, most Russians tell a westerner what they assume they want to hear

Hmmm

 

[kabbes]

I know you don't like to hear of my 1988-93 experiences in Russia for some reason…

So you’re building your thesis on your experience of a group of people 30-35 years ago? The people of Russia have been through an awful lot in the last 35 years. The world has also changed an awful lot in the last 35 years, both inside and outside of Russia. Don’t you think that all this might have had an effect on the popular discourses, repertoires, representations, identities etc of the Russian people? Or is your theory that these things are static?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's well documented that Putin's early mass popularity was linked to a rejection of the social and economic disasters of the Yeltsin period. What you might feel you're sure about Russians doesn't really come into it, as everybody knows that loads of Russians reject Putin, possibly increasingly so. But for one thing they don't all do so for the same reason.

Putin might be a war criminal. In that he joins a long, international, inglorious line, and it's only tenuously connected to what is currently being discussed in the thread.

And this is what you found out between 1988 and 1993

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not embarrassing to much of the Russian population however, which, evidence suggests, prefers such an arrangement over the chaos of the Yeltsin era, complete with its plummeting living standards and drastically falling life expectancy. It's completely in line with the historical Russian fear of the kind of systemic disruption which always seems to bring them tragedy.

Yet more drivel about the Russian 'national character'.