Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Aladdin]

The whole point of a secular education is, purportedly, to open students minds up to ideas and thought that confronts religious/sacred ideas of all hues.

Eh? No. A secular education is an education that does not have ANYTHING related to religion or faith at all. It most certainly is not to actually confront or disavow faiths or religions. Where did you get the idea that it was to confront religious beliefs?
Secular just means "non religious"....as in No reference to Religion at all ...ever...in any fashion.

 

[Spymaster]

... too many people on here suggesting stopping teaching instead.

Of course. If by too many people you actually mean "nobody".

 

[Spymaster]

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[Spymaster]

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[planetgeli]

Of course. If by too many people you actually mean "nobody".

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Tripling. An excellent literary device.

Or your finger is glued to enter. Or your computer is fucked.

 

[bimble]

The detail in this is really grim, on the 15 suspects being held. Including the guy who issued the fatwa and some students who helped for money it says. No lone nutter case this one.

France: Suspects behind beheading called for teacher’s death

Fifteen people are being held over the beheading of a French teacher, a crime that led to nationwide protests.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Spymaster]

Religions are just ideas that people have. In my opinion stupid, wrong, ignorant ideas. Just like they feel that my atheism is wrong. So if they get to say what they think, so should I and i shouldn't need to give them unwarranted respect when it's not due. Nor give them special privileges. Nor give them any money or power. Nor go along with or make allowance for their sexism, prejudices, intolerance, homophobia, misogyny, caste discrimination, Christian rock music or whatever. That's not intolerant.

I agree with this. I don't need to give them any of the things you mention. I can just ignore them or challenge the those religiuous principles that are sexist, homophobic, etc.

I don't see why anyone needs to blanket insult all of them though.

They can think whatever they like. But they don't ever leave it at that, not if they get the chance. They want to force their ideas, practices and behavioural norms onto everyone else.

What, all of them? We were getting told off for homogenising individuals within certain religions earlier and here you are homoginising everyone of all religions.

The vast majority of religious people that I've known, and there are many, have never even mentioned their religion to me, let alone tried to force their beliefs or practices on me.

 

[stethoscope]

Well, sure, it's unrealistic to think no-one will ever feel uncomfortable in school. But teachers ought to avoid decisions which promote their students' discomfort.

I for one welcome this new found sensitivity, given the sheer amount of LGBT people I've known who were schooled at uber-religious schools and what they were taught in some cases really screwed them up for years until they could unpack through therapy. Not aware of any of them taking retribution though.

Fortunate myself as someone LGBTI that I went to state comps, where only my primary school was CoE but even then 'liberal' with it.

 

[Raheem]

I for one welcome this new found sensitivity, given the sheer amount of LGBT people I've known who were schooled at uber-religious schools and what they were taught in some cases really screwed them up for years until they could unpack through therapy. Not aware of any of them taking retribution though.

Fortunate myself as someone LGBTI that I went to state comps, where only my primary school was CoE but even then 'liberal' with it.

Just so you know, I've been capable of sensitivity for quite a while. It's not particularly new-found.

 

[bimble]

I agree with this. I don't need to give them any of the things you mention. I can just ignore them or challenge the those religiuous principles that are sexist, homophobic, etc. I don't see why anyone needs to blanket insult all of them.

What, all of them? We were getting told off for homogenising individuals within certain religions earlier and here you are homoginising everyone of all religions.

The vast majority of religious people that I've known, and there are many, have never even mentioned their religion to me, let alone tried to force their beliefs or practices on me.

Ye but vegans and cyclists what if those are religions too.

 

[Aladdin]

Religions are just ideas that people have. In my opinion stupid, wrong, ignorant ideas. Just like they feel that my atheism is wrong. So if they get to say what they think, so should I and i shouldn't need to give them unwarranted respect when it's not due. Nor give them special privileges. Nor give them any money or power. Nor go along with or make allowance for their sexism, prejudices, intolerance, homophobia, misogyny, caste discrimination, Christian rock music or whatever. That's not intolerant. Opinionated, sure. They can think whatever they like. But they don't ever leave it at that, not if they get the chance. They want to force their ideas, practices and behavioural norms onto everyone else. That's why some of us get annoyed.

I happen to have faith and religious beliefs. Some of my very best friends are atheists.
I've never once in my entire life ever tried to "convert" anyone . My beliefs are personal to me. Sometimes I've been quizzed and queried about them but generally I dont feel the need to discuss them

However you have just stated that you think people like me are in some way deficient.
And that I have forced my beliefs and ideas onto others.

I dont subscribe to sexism, prejudices, intolerance, homophobia, misogyny, caste discrimination, Christian rock music etc..

Stop deciding how everyone who has any religious belief is. In your mind you've tarred everyone with the one brush.
That's really rather limited.

 

[Spymaster]

Ye but vegans and cyclists what if those are religions too.

I'm on Kev's side for those.

 

[Raheem]

Ye but vegans and cyclists what if those are religions too.

They just need to grow some nuts and break their chains.

 

[brogdale]

Do you believe children shouldn't be put in a position where their religious beliefs might cause them to exclude themselves from a lesson (assuming self-exclusion was allowed)?

Yes.

 

[Sweet FA]

Of course. If by too many people you actually mean "nobody".

Apart from those saying Samuel Paty should have done something differently. He was a teacher doing his job.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I agree with this. I don't need to give them any of the things you mention. I can just ignore them or challenge the those religiuous principles that are sexist, homophobic, etc. I don't see why anyone needs to blanket insult all of them.

What, all of them? We were getting told off for homogenising individuals within certain religions earlier and here you are homoginising everyone of all religions.

The vast majority of religious people that I've known, and there are many, have never even mentioned their religion to me, let alone tried to force their beliefs or practices on me.

As an atheist I have no time for religious beliefs, but i too have and have had religious friends, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish. Lots of atheists and agnostics too. And one pagan. Oh, and some followers of the Bhagwan. It's religions that are the trouble. Established ones, and those with holy, inerrant texts. Priestly hierarchies. Wealth. Power. Etc

 

[Raheem]

Apart from those saying Samuel Paty should have done something differently. He was a teacher doing his job.

I have to admit that it's only this case that has shaken my belief in the infallibility of teachers.

 

[stethoscope]

Stop deciding how everyone who has any religious belief is. In your mind you've tarred everyone with the one brush.
That's really rather limited.

I sympathise with this, whilst being atheist myself. My mum has always had a strong personal Christian faith but also a (once active) socialist, feminist, etc. Bennite style Christian socialist. She gets understandably pretty tired sometimes with the broad brush/conflation of having a faith and organised religion/certain wings of!

 

[Sweet FA]

I have to admit that it's only this case that has shaken my belief in the infallibility of teachers.

Really? I've met some proper shit ones in my time.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I happen to have faith and religious beliefs. Some of my very best friends are atheists.
I've never once in my entire life ever tried to "convert" anyone . My beliefs are personal to me. Sometimes I've been quizzed and queried about them but generally I dont feel the need to discuss them

However you have just stated that you think people like me are in some way deficient.
And that I have forced my beliefs and ideas onto others.

I dont subscribe to sexism, prejudices, intolerance, homophobia, misogyny, caste discrimination, Christian rock music etc..

Stop deciding how everyone who has any religious belief is. In your mind you've tarred everyone with the one brush.
That's really rather limited.

Sorry to have upset you. As I said above, it's established religions I object too. Individual believers may or may not try to convert others. But powerful, established religions do. Yeah, I've over-egged the pudding somewhat and there's always exceptions.

 

[Raheem]

Really? I've met some proper shit ones in my time.

Me too. Shit ones, average ones, good ones with bad days. But I've always felt that you can't really criticise them, because that would be exactly the same as saying that all teaching should be permanently banned.

 

[planetgeli]

I happen to have faith and religious beliefs. Some of my very best friends are atheists.
I've never once in my entire life ever tried to "convert" anyone . My beliefs are personal to me. Sometimes I've been quizzed and queried about them but generally I dont feel the need to discuss them

However you have just stated that you think people like me are in some way deficient.
And that I have forced my beliefs and ideas onto others.

I dont subscribe to sexism, prejudices, intolerance, homophobia, misogyny, caste discrimination, Christian rock music etc..

Stop deciding how everyone who has any religious belief is. In your mind you've tarred everyone with the one brush.
That's really rather limited.

I think and hope Kev was talking about organised religion and the way it has the right, for example, to knock on your door when it feels like it or have a slot on the Radio every day etc etc. And if you're not religious that gets a bit much sometimes. I get that. And I get that without thinking people like yourself are deficient in some way. You certainly never thrust it on people in this forum. And there are lots of people like you who act like you too in every day life. That's great.

But that's different to the space afforded to organised religion in many facets of life that impinges on my life.

 

[Aladdin]

As an atheist I have no time for religious beliefs, but i too have and have had religious friends, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish. Lots of atheists and agnostics too. And one pagan. Oh, and some followers of the Bhagwan. It's religions that are the trouble. Established ones, and those with holy, inerrant texts. Priestly hierarchies. Wealth. Power. Etc

You're sonewhat right.
But its people who are the trouble. Corrupt greedy self centred power hungry people.
They show up everywhere you know.

 

[8ball]

I agree with this. I don't need to give them any of the things you mention. I can just ignore them or challenge the those religiuous principles that are sexist, homophobic, etc. I don't see why anyone needs to blanket insult all of them.

What, all of them? We were getting told off for homogenising individuals within certain religions earlier and here you are homoginising everyone of all religions.

The vast majority of religious people that I've known, and there are many, have never even mentioned their religion to me, let alone tried to force their beliefs or practices on me.

Whoah, two points in a row.

Admittedly, one of them was a dot.

Edit: I see I can’t even count - bowing out for a wee nap.

 

[planetgeli]

I think and hope Kev was talking about organised religion and the way it has the right, for example, to knock on your door when it feels like it or have a slot on the Radio every day etc etc. And if you're not religious that gets a bit much sometimes. I get that. And I get that without thinking people like yourself are deficient in some way. You certainly never thrust it on people in this forum. And there are lots of people like you who act like you too in every day life. That's great.

But that's different to the space afforded to organised religion in many facets of life that impinges on my life.

And fwiw I feel the same about capitalist hegemony and how that leaves no space for my political views. It doesn't mean I think everyone who subscribes to it is deficient and responsible for the politics and culture being dominated by it.

 

[Sweet FA]

But I've always felt that you can't really criticise them

Criticise away, there's plenty to criticise when it comes to teachers. Showing a drawing in a class to illustrate a specific point, whilst also offering a way out to children who may for whatever reason not want to see the image, don't seem unreasonable.

 

[Raheem]

Criticise away, there's plenty to criticise when it comes to teachers. Showing a drawing in a class to illustrate a specific point, whilst also offering a way out to children who may for whatever reason not want to see the image, don't seem unreasonable.

But it's also not immune to critique, yes?

 

[Spymaster]

Criticise away, there's plenty to criticise when it comes to teachers. Showing a drawing in a class to illustrate a specific point, whilst also offering a way out to children who may for whatever reason not want to see the image, don't seem unreasonable.

You won't be getting much engagement here. It's all been done to death. This is what happens when you join a thread after 50 pages. It's mostly about calling each other cunts now.

 

[Sweet FA]

You won't be getting much engagement here. It's all been done to death. This is what happens when you join a thread after 50 pages. It's mostly about calling each other cunts now.

Yeh I hear you - I got up to the mid 20s by this morning then skipped to the end.


You cunt.

 

[Saul Goodman]

You won't be getting much engagement here. It's all been done to death. This is what happens when you join a thread after 50 pages. It's mostly about calling each other cunts now.

Or, as I like to call it, 'Invoking Goodman's law'.