Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[chilango]

This sums up part of the reason for my utter despondency at not just this thread, but the response I’m seeing elsewhere too.

The other part is quibbling over the lesson plan of a murder victim. Sickening.

I'm getting pretty fed up of the moral grandstanding by the likes of Athos here to be honest. Ramming the poor bloke's death down my throat as if that means you can't even begin to contemplate a way forward.

 

[brogdale]

You described Athos's position as authoritarian. What other conclusions should he reach?

Of course the context for this discussion is set against the authoritarianism of the French state; with loi no 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" banning any symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools.

Which makes the delivery of curriculum content dependent on students' self identification on the basis of faith background the more inexplicable.

 

[chilango]

You described Athos's position as authoritarian. What other conclusions should he reach?

He is being authoritarian in his insistence that there is no other way to approach a discussion secularisn and freedom of expression than by showing these cartoons, that any attempt to navigate this more sensitively is Islamist appeasement and so on. That these values shouild be imposed on those who don't share them and so on.

Maybe that authoritarianism is right or even needed. Maybe. But let's be honest here that this about wanting to impose a certain set of values above others.

I know which side I'm on. But i also know theres other sides who do too.

 

[seeformiles]

as someone who was at school at the time of the satanic verses affair i can't recall any similar lessons in which rushdie was brought up and examined other than informally - did any urbs 'of a certain age' get classes in freedom of expression then?

The only lesson in which such things would have been touched on would be RE but that class was taught from the position that a Presbyterian view of Christianity was the undisputed truth and never challenged while briefly touching on all the “inferior” belief systems of the world. The school governors also had a stranglehold on other subjects - most memorably Biology where we looked forward to the “sexual reproduction” lesson only to find that there was no juicy stuff at all - just a lot of pussyfooting around the subject using potatoes as the main example. Even then, some kids from the strictest Free Presbyterian households were not allowed to attend. Goodness knows we ever managed to reproduce in future years - given that, in the tuberous example, you’d have to lie on your back, wait for a windy day, ejaculate into the breeze and ensure your partner was lying downwind nearby...

 

[8ball]

I'm getting pretty fed up of the moral grandstanding by the likes of Athos here to be honest. Ramming the poor bloke's death down my throat as if that means you can't even begin to contemplate a way forward.

We’re all inevitably missing elements of context. Under the circumstances, filling in blanks and making criticisms does come over rather crass, which is what is provoking the reaction.

I think a little distance and the filling in of that context are probably necessary before meaningfully sketching out a better way forward is possible. Which is a matter for the French, given their particular kind of secularism.

 

[inva]

So seeing the image isn't necessary?

To try and teach a segment about the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in a class on freedom of speech without showing any of the cartoons would be ludicrous wouldn't it? Let's discuss the issue, let's talk about whether they were grossly offensive, who they offended, whether that should be allowed etc, but before we even start talking we will essentially declare they are beyond the pale by refusing to show them. What kind of a conversation can you have in those circumstances?

So where does that leave us? Do you then refuse to discuss Charlie Hebdo at all and insist that classes on freedom of speech must use a different example to illustrate them? Even though it is one of the most important and relevant examples. It would be a victory for the islamists, I can't see how it is progressive.

 

[belboid]

What an utterly desperate and bizarre hill to die on. Nobody would be identifying themselves as a Muslim; they'd already have been identified as such, from so many other sources e.g. explicitly, name, diet, cultural practices, etc., etc.

This is just tosh. Of course people would have to be identifying themselves. Seeing as religious attire is banned in french schools (tho things like crosses are pretty much fine) you don’t really have that much to go on. Maybe Mohamed comes from an irreligious family, but still eats halal cow that’s what you do. Maybe that white kid is a secret convert and is still scared to tell anyone else. You can’t make such assumptions, especially in a lesson about freedom of expression.

You also place too much responsibility on the shoulders of thirteen year olds, a responsibility that should be taken up by the school and teacher. They shouldn’t be put in that position and materials that mean they are unable to fully take part in a discussion can’t possibly be the best available.

 

[chilango]

I'm desperately trying to broaden the discussion out, away from this specific incident into what are live issues in the UK today, that some of us have experience of facing.

But, it's clear that this isn't going to happen on this thread. And I'm part of the problem. So I'm out of here for a bit.

 

[belboid]

I understand what you're saying. But submitting to the bullying of the Chechen Boxing Club isn't the way forward. That just bolsters right-wing authoritarian ideology. We should be doing all we can to empower all children to reject religious dogma. Including by asserting freedom of expression.

That’s you being brave on behalf of others though. It’s not a fair position to put 13 year olds in.

 

[Pickman's model]

I understand what you're saying. But submitting to the bullying of the Chechen Boxing Club isn't the way forward. That just bolsters right-wing authoritarian ideology. We should be doing all we can to empower all children to reject religious dogma. Including by asserting freedom of expression.

so left wing authoritarianism is fine but right wing authoritarianism isn't.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Stop banging on about racism. Nobody is suggesting that Paty or even the system acted in a racist manner. The point is that the system should not require school children of any religion to identify themselves for different treatment, optionally or otherwise.

I assumed from your post below that your main point was racism, or offending muslims, and that giving them the opportunity to exclude themselves was a secondary issue, and I believe these points should be addressed in that order.

This is about the right to cause offence and often we see the opinion on these boards that racists are free to air their views but shouldn't be surprised when someone acquaints their head with the pavement. If millions of muslims take offence at the cartoons being shown, why show them to a class containing muslims? You can have a perfectly effective discussion of freedom of expression without getting the cartoons out. It just seems gratuitous to me.

 

[Athos]

so left wing authoritarianism is fine but right wing authoritarianism isn't.

 

[8ball]

I'm desperately trying to broaden the discussion out, away from this specific incident into what are live issues in the UK today, that some of us have experience of facing.

But, it's clear that this isn't going to happen on this thread. And I'm part of the problem. So I'm out of here for a bit.

Liked, but not for the “out of here for a bit” part, iyswim.

 

[belboid]

The only lesson in which such things would have been touched on would be RE but that class was taught from the position that a Presbyterian view of Christianity was the undisputed truth and never challenged while briefly touching on all the “inferior” belief systems of the world. The school governors also had a stranglehold on other subjects - most memorably Biology where we looked forward to the “sexual reproduction” lesson only to find that there was no juicy stuff at all - just a lot of pussyfooting around the subject using potatoes as the main example. Even then, some kids from the strictest Free Presbyterian households were not allowed to attend. Goodness knows we ever managed to reproduce in future years - given that, in the tuberous example, you’d have to lie on your back, wait for a windy day, ejaculate into the breeze and ensure your partner was lying downwind nearby...

RE is one of the few subjects that is supposed to help teach critical thinking (prior to year 10) in British schools. It’s a bit of a joke to say the least. We had two and a half years of Christianity and then were meant to have six months on a.n. other religion. In the second lesson, just after being shown the layout of a mosque, the teacher simply said ‘this is boring’ and went back to Christianity.

 

[8ball]

RE is one of the few subjects that is supposed to help teach critical thinking (prior to year 10) in British schools. It’s a bit of a joke to say the least. We had two and a half years of Christianity and then were meant to have six months on a.n. other religion. In the second lesson, just after being shown the layout of a mosque, the teacher simply said ‘this is boring’ and went back to Christianity.

Yeah, a load of Christianity, then one lesson on Judaism, one on Islam etc.

 

[inva]

RE is one of the few subjects that is supposed to help teach critical thinking (prior to year 10) in British schools. It’s a bit of a joke to say the least. We had two and a half years of Christianity and then were meant to have six months on a.n. other religion. In the second lesson, just after being shown the layout of a mosque, the teacher simply said ‘this is boring’ and went back to Christianity.

It was far more balanced than that when I was at school (2000s). A wide range of religions covered in relative depth.

 

[Serge Forward]

Th

This sums up part of the reason for my utter despondency at not just this thread, but the response I’m seeing elsewhere too.

The other part is quibbling over the lesson plan of a murder victim. Sickening.

I know, it's depressing and demoralising to see the level of relativism on display here. How did the UK left get to this sorry state of affairs? Is it the influence of US id-politics? The "cosy up to any oppressed community, justifying whatever reactionary shite some in that community may believe, as long as we can recruit members" SWP? Middle class liberal sensibilities? I mean, what the actual fuck!?!?

 

[bimble]

Yeah, a load of Christianity, then one lesson on Judaism, one on Islam etc.

They’ve got to do it like that else everyone would convert to something more fun like Zoroastrianism and the parents would complain.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so left wing authoritarianism is fine but right wing authoritarianism isn't.

This is absurd woolly relativism. How dare you insist that I should be allowed to think for myself.

Doesn't work, does it?

 

[Pickman's model]

I understand what you're saying. But submitting to the bullying of the Chechen Boxing Club isn't the way forward. That just bolsters right-wing authoritarian ideology. We should be doing all we can to empower all children to reject religious dogma. Including by asserting freedom of expression.

god you post some awful piffle

how will you empower all children to reject religious dogma? answer, please, with reference to children in france.

 

[danny la rouge]

fairly sure this is bullshit tbf.

I've had a look at NASUWT's press releases and Twitter. NASUWT reaction to Welsh Government announcement

https://twitter.com/NASUWT

Not a peep. Nothing.

EIS, nothing on their website either, although they did retweet a tweet from Aamer Anwar (a Scottish solicitor). But I can see no statement of their own.

This is somewhat worse than Gita Sahgal guessed, isn't it? Where is the condemnation of the murder, the solidarity with French teachers? It looks like cowardice to me.

 

[xenon]

At RE lessons in secondry school, we learned from a series of introductory books about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism. I was a stroppy-ish 12 / 13 YO and not interested in any of it. In hinesight, wonder if I could have excluded myself cos I found it offensive to my basic agnostasism / and boring...

 

[belboid]

Th

I know, it's depressing and demoralising to see the level of relativism on display here. How did the UK left get to this sorry state of affairs? Is it the influence of US id-politics? The "cosy up to any oppressed community, justifying whatever reactionary shite some in that community may believe, as long as we can recruit members" SWP? Middle class liberal sensibilities? I mean, what the actual fuck!?!?

It’s about not wanting to push people, oppressed peoples who do face a load of racist shite, into the arms of the far right. I don’t see how adding to feelings of exclusion they quite understandably have, will help.

 

[Spymaster]

You appear to have painted yourself into a corner here. Athos's objection applies if you tailor your classes so that they comply with the proscriptions and prescriptions of particular religions. If you don't do that, you leave space for situations in which people of certain faiths may have problems with certain parts of a class. So either you allow them to opt out, in which case, they have to self-identify ('not our place to tell anyone else what they should believe' is, after all, the principle you're upholding), or you force them to participate in the sections of the class that you know might come into conflict with the prescriptions and proscriptions of their beliefs.

So how do you square that circle?

By not creating the division in the first place which in this case equates to not using those particular cartoons in that particular class and illustrating freedom of expression in one of another million possible ways.

 

[Serge Forward]

It’s about not wanting to push people, oppressed peoples who do face a load of racist shite, into the arms of the far right. I don’t see how adding to feelings of exclusion they quite understandably have, will help.

And I don't see how sympathy for far right Muslims helps either.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is absurd woolly relativism. How dare you insist that I should be allowed to think for myself.

Doesn't work, does it?

no, sadly it doesn't. you don't empower anyone by insisting on something. you certainly don't empower them by insisting on something they should want for themselves. and i am very curious to find out how athos plans to empower french schoolchildren

e2a i always wonder why people believe others when given the opportunity to 'think for themselves' will reach different conclusions. and you won't get french people 'thinking for themselves' because some british people think they should

 

[planetgeli]

But the teacher did something wrong, something awful...this much we know.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The only lesson in which such things would have been touched on would be RE but that class was taught from the position that a Presbyterian view of Christianity was the undisputed truth and never challenged while briefly touching on all the “inferior” belief systems of the world. The school governors also had a stranglehold on other subjects - most memorably Biology where we looked forward to the “sexual reproduction” lesson only to find that there was no juicy stuff at all - just a lot of pussyfooting around the subject using potatoes as the main example. Even then, some kids from the strictest Free Presbyterian households were not allowed to attend. Goodness knows we ever managed to reproduce in future years - given that, in the tuberous example, you’d have to lie on your back, wait for a windy day, ejaculate into the breeze and ensure your partner was lying downwind nearby...

Always works for me

 

[belboid]

And I don't see how sympathy for far right Muslims helps either.

Who is showing sympathy for them? It isn’t only far right islamists who object to depictions of Mohammed.

 

[Spymaster]

And I don't see how sympathy for far right Muslims helps either.

ffs