littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You made a very specific claim, one that is contradicted by other statements quoted on this thread. It's not unreasonable to ask you to back your claim up.
Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France
- Thread starter Spymaster
- Start date
This looks like a reasonable statement to me:
www.europe-solidaire.org
Stand and Be Counted – Samuel Paty‘s decapitation in France and Algerian experience - Europe Solidaire Sans Frontières
Marieme Helie Lucas, an Algerian sociologist and freedom fighter, founder of the solidarity networks Women Living Under Muslim Laws, and (...)
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Remind me what specific claim I made. I don't think there's much in terms of the precise details that matters to my opinion. It's an awful thing for teachers to sew division in their own classrooms.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
This looks like a reasonable statement to me:
Stand and Be Counted – Samuel Paty‘s decapitation in France and Algerian experience - Europe Solidaire Sans Frontières
Marieme Helie Lucas, an Algerian sociologist and freedom fighter, founder of the solidarity networks Women Living Under Muslim Laws, and (...)
Well, aside from ‘freedom of speech’ being something of a taboo on urban...
Raheem
Well-Known Member
You shouldn't say that.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
A secondary school that doesn’t show imagery (as well as quote literature) that could be distressing to minorities wouldn’t provide much of an education about history or RE
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Or politics (not that they do), or science, depending on the particular minority involved. Arguable there should be a dialogue involving everyone with a stake, but it feels a bit academic in the context of a teacher who just got his head hacked off by a fucking nutjob.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Yes, when I first heard of this incident that's definitely the aspect where I thought the adjective 'awful' applied.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The cartoons are racist and reactionary. There's no point in pretending the weren't. There's nothing shameful in pointing that out. That doesn't excuse the slaughter of the journalists at Charlie Hebdo or the others murdered in that day.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The cartoons are racist and reactionary. There's no point in pretending the weren't. There's nothing shameful in pointing that out. That doesn't excuse the slaughter of the journalists at Charlie Hebdo or the others murdered in that day.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Should a teacher in a state school in a secular country plan his lessons around the beliefs of a minority of religious pupils?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Google them and form your own opinion.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
I think provocation is a risible defense for a vile and brutal crime like this. If being a cunt was a capital offence there'd be very few of us alive and posting on these boards.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Just think......
A teacher...had his head CUT OFF over someone being offended by a cartoon of someone who lived 1500 years ago....in modern France 2020.
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has not faith"
"To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil." The prophet Mohammed.
The fucking scum that beheaded Samuel Paty were not followers of Mohammad! They were nasty evil cunts. End of.
They have no real "faith". They're an abomination to any true believer in Islam.
They're an abomination to a modern world.
They're bigots and murderers and liars.
They do not represent the majority of Islam.
They do not represent the vast majority of Muslims.
They are a mindlessly cruel aberration.
Samuel Paty absolutely did not deserve this death. He did nothing wrong.
The fact that some poor kid lied about the lesson is extremely depressing. How fucked up does a kid have to be to do that? To set about lying in order to ingraciate themselves with their radicalised nutjob leaders? To gain what? A sense of power?
The fact that the kids family obviously spread hate about Samuel Paty is appalling. Their small minds bursting with hate as they spread the word. They and others deserve the full force of the law to investigate their part in his murder.
They have not only taken a life but they have altered the lives of every person connected with Samuel. Every child in that school is now affected and their families and their communities. The school must also look at its relationship with its students and families and move to protect staff and all pupils.
What Samuel's murderers did was fed by hate and a miserable narrow view of the world and other human beings.
Those who decided Samuel should die in this way are an "abberation" of humanity in every sense.
I read posts here often criticising religion and faith and it bothers me somewhat. I dont feel comfortable with it. It's as if some people detest people who have a faith. This is why I think its really important to say that Radicalised Islam is not Islam. It's a hate group. A monstrosity using a warped ideology to impose its will on others including moderates.
RIP Samuel.
A teacher...had his head CUT OFF over someone being offended by a cartoon of someone who lived 1500 years ago....in modern France 2020.
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has not faith"
"To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil." The prophet Mohammed.
The fucking scum that beheaded Samuel Paty were not followers of Mohammad! They were nasty evil cunts. End of.
They have no real "faith". They're an abomination to any true believer in Islam.
They're an abomination to a modern world.
They're bigots and murderers and liars.
They do not represent the majority of Islam.
They do not represent the vast majority of Muslims.
They are a mindlessly cruel aberration.
Samuel Paty absolutely did not deserve this death. He did nothing wrong.
The fact that some poor kid lied about the lesson is extremely depressing. How fucked up does a kid have to be to do that? To set about lying in order to ingraciate themselves with their radicalised nutjob leaders? To gain what? A sense of power?
The fact that the kids family obviously spread hate about Samuel Paty is appalling. Their small minds bursting with hate as they spread the word. They and others deserve the full force of the law to investigate their part in his murder.
They have not only taken a life but they have altered the lives of every person connected with Samuel. Every child in that school is now affected and their families and their communities. The school must also look at its relationship with its students and families and move to protect staff and all pupils.
What Samuel's murderers did was fed by hate and a miserable narrow view of the world and other human beings.
Those who decided Samuel should die in this way are an "abberation" of humanity in every sense.
I read posts here often criticising religion and faith and it bothers me somewhat. I dont feel comfortable with it. It's as if some people detest people who have a faith. This is why I think its really important to say that Radicalised Islam is not Islam. It's a hate group. A monstrosity using a warped ideology to impose its will on others including moderates.
RIP Samuel.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
This is a stupid position. The nazis murdered millions of Jews. Is that all that should be discussed about nazism? Harold Shipman killed over 200 people. Is it wrong to discuss anything about him but his crimes?
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stethoscope
Well-Known Member
You claimed:
But reading later reports, it's not at all clear that is the case.
Some revisionism there.
Butchers entirely reasonably asked you for a link to that report, which you haven't provided.
e2a: I've since checked that Castro thread that Butchers noted, Jesus.
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That one DLR posted I don’t understand. It looks racist to me. It looks like a human-animal chasing a white woman. But I can’t read it. And I don’t know enough politics or about French society to disagree when other people on this thread who know more tell me it’s a satire on the hypocrisy about immigrants and therefore not racist.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Thanks for your usual restrained language about a comment on...language.
And the usual misrepresenting of my words. Either that or you just don't get it, but I've always given you more credit than that.
Nobody is saying other aspects can't be discussed, just like yesterday when I didn't tell you to STFU because I don't censor. This is a comment about proportionate language. Hope that helps.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No idea why you’d include Butchers here. He’s just been sat on a bench like the park drunk spitting at people. Even when he was sober earlier yesterday he contributed nothing of value to this thread.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Article on the BBC this morning (so take with a pinch of salt) has prompted me to re-think one or two aspects.
It seems that the use of the CH cartoons is also practiced by other teachers. So, my comments regarding the "appropriateness" of using them in a classroom need to be re-visited in this light. Whilst, my own experience of other places remains that I cannot envisage using in this way being "ok" this does not seem to apply in France.
"So where does all that leave teachers like Samuel Paty, who are tasked with teaching students about freedom of speech?" This suggests to me that these lessons on Freedom of Expression are - at least in part - dictated from above, perhaps a little like the risible "British Values" that schools in the UK are forced to promote. This, for me at least, changes the framing a little away from a teacher making a choice (and the defense or criticism of that) and more towards State directives being imposed upon schools and teachers and pupils.
"Meanwhile, almost 70% of Muslim respondents believe publishing the images was wrong" Again, take the figures with a pinch of salt but there clearly remains a substantial group of people who could be upset when these cartoons are shown.
None of which changes the fact of a brutal terrorist murder, but it does change how I should be reading the circumstances around it.
It seems that the use of the CH cartoons is also practiced by other teachers. So, my comments regarding the "appropriateness" of using them in a classroom need to be re-visited in this light. Whilst, my own experience of other places remains that I cannot envisage using in this way being "ok" this does not seem to apply in France.
"So where does all that leave teachers like Samuel Paty, who are tasked with teaching students about freedom of speech?" This suggests to me that these lessons on Freedom of Expression are - at least in part - dictated from above, perhaps a little like the risible "British Values" that schools in the UK are forced to promote. This, for me at least, changes the framing a little away from a teacher making a choice (and the defense or criticism of that) and more towards State directives being imposed upon schools and teachers and pupils.
"Meanwhile, almost 70% of Muslim respondents believe publishing the images was wrong" Again, take the figures with a pinch of salt but there clearly remains a substantial group of people who could be upset when these cartoons are shown.
None of which changes the fact of a brutal terrorist murder, but it does change how I should be reading the circumstances around it.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
'Muslims' will have a range of views on the cartoons, like any other 'group'.
That's one of the things that's being criticised by some on here; the idea that people can be grouped together in terms of religion/ethnicity/similar category and then assumed to have the same view - also often assumed to be a reactionary and conservative one. It's a very dodgy position, but one that's crept into left wing politics more and more.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
From the BIB I'm kind of amazed you take what you do from it. I'm surprised that figure is as low as 70% and from that I'd have said "there clearly remains a substantial group of people who aren't that upset about the cartoons being shown."
I'd honestly have expected the figure to be higher. Unless I'm getting something wrong. The religion preaches (literally) no images of Mohammed doesn't it? So why the surprise lots of followers would be upset? I thought that was a given and the debate here is about how far that upset should or shouldn't be accommodated.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No. You and others have repeatedly attempted to shut down any discussion or criticism of the showing of the cartoons with accusations of victim blaming, or support for hardcore islamists. You just did it again above. These are discussion boards. You don’t get to dictate what other people want to discuss. Hope that helps.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Because his pithy one-liners often still make more of a point (which I think fly above some people's heads) than I find some of the dressed up posts do.
Anyway, whatever, better get to work.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Unreasonably so. Nobody has really done that except for Edie just now.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Now that is bollocks Spy. Do show me where I've tried to shut down discussion. I've asserted the opposite on several occasions, most notably with yourself, who I think is talking absolute shite but has the right to talk that shite. All I asked was for you to stick to known facts rather than a lot of the assertions you've made which you yourself backed down on.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
As a generality, no.
Equally any such teacher directed to deliver content that necessitates certain students self-identifying for possible exclusion might justifiably question the merit of that specific learning experience.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I'm not sure what I expected the figure to be tbh.
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