Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[kebabking]

Go then show one of the Muslim people you know a picture of. Mohumed and ask how he feels about a teacher doing it to his kids in school? kebabking

I have no idea how they would react, bar that I'm pretty sure none of them would feel the need to behead either me or the teacher in the street...

What funny ideas you have about the inability of Muslims (all of them, apparently) to be offended by something without charging about the place with a sword and beheading people.

Is it because you view them as savages - ruled by their baser instincts and without the intellect and forebearance of the White Man that allows him to stay his hand?

Would you not be happier on Stormfront, or taking advantage of Nigel Farages' new business opportunity?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why what? Why is the pornography comparison stupid?

Because I can imagine a well designed class for kids that discusses the cartoons in an appropriate manner, whereas showing kids pornography no so much.

What is pornography? What are its defining characteristics? How do you know it?

 

[killer b]

I think if you find yourself inviting part of the class to step outside, you ought to be wondering if your lesson plan is all that.

In the UK, parents are allowed to ask for their kids to be excluded from sex ed classes - maybe the classes should be altered to remove any explicit content from them so all kids can be included?

 

[platinumsage]

In the UK, parents are allowed to ask for their kids to be excluded from sex ed classes - maybe the classes should be altered to remove any explicit content from them so all kids can be included?

Our year 8 history teacher showed us a film of corpses at a concentration camp, but beforehand wrote a letter to our parents asking their authorisation to let us view it. Same in year 6 with the sex education video featuring nakedness.

In both cases I think it was wrong to ask parent's permission for such things, and the school should have just gone ahead. Either something is suitable for being shown to children in class or it isn't.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

so now what is done in a french school by a french teacher has nothing to do with the french state. The killing has been described by the education minister as an attack on the french republic. As I understand it the teacher was a state employee. But nothing to do with the french state.

How do you work that one out?

The actions of this teacher were not part of any National French education curriculum. He showed the cartoons entirely on his own initiative, or so I believe. What some government minister said subsequently is irrelevant. I used to be a postie, back when it was state-run, but the state didn't control whether I posted letters in the correct postbox or not.

 

[discokermit]

teachers should be beheaded for being teachers.

 

[Raheem]

In the UK, parents are allowed to ask for their kids to be excluded from sex ed classes - maybe the classes should be altered to remove any explicit content from them so all kids can be included?

The teachers don't invite the kids to exclude themselves, though. Why would a teacher want to put their students in that position?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

teachers should be beheaded for being teachers.

At last, the voice of reason!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think if you find yourself inviting part of the class to step outside, you ought to be wondering if your lesson plan is all that.

I dunno. I remember a frog dissection in biology class for which we were told we didn't have to stay if we didn't want to.

Problem with always avoiding anything likely to be controversial is that you end up having to accommodate a minority sensibility all the time at the expense of everyone else.

 

[Pickman's model]

The actions of this teacher were not part of any National French education curriculum. He showed the cartoons entirely on his own initiative, or so I believe.

utterly irrelevant

 

[bimble]

In the UK, parents are allowed to ask for their kids to be excluded from sex ed classes - maybe the classes should be altered to remove any explicit content from them so all kids can be included?

Was just going to say the same thing, It sounds right (that no children should ever be invited to leave the room before a class) but in the end it would mean a few parents deciding the curriculum for everyone.
We had a few Plymouth Brethren kids at my school who sat out of sex ed things and i (the jew) didn't have to go to stuff about jesus and i think thats kind of ok.

 

[NoXion]

Another pathetic individual using religion as an excuse to act out their murderous desires.

 

[chilango]

Why what? Why is the pornography comparison stupid?

Because I can imagine a well designed class for kids that discusses the cartoons in an appropriate manner, whereas showing kids pornography no so much.

At the risk of sounding like one of the children in question...yeah, but why?

I can imagine, and indeed have experience of, classes discussing such subjects appropriately.

The inclusion of the content in both the case of pornography and these cartoons would be gratuitous. There's no need for it to enable a productive discussion.

Kids no doubt can, will and have found these cartoons and pornography for themselves. I'm not arguing for any sort of bans, just I'm not sure teachers should be showing this kind of content in schools when it's not necessary.

 

[Yossarian]

teachers should be beheaded for being teachers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At the risk of sounding like one of the children in question...yeah, but why?

I can imagine, and indeed have experience of, classes discussing such subjects appropriately.

The inclusion of the content in both the case of pornography and these cartoons would be gratuitous. There's no need for it to enable a productive discussion.

Kids no doubt can, will and have found these cartoons and pornography for themselves. I'm not arguing for any sort of bans, just I'm not sure teachers should be showing this kind of content in schools when it's not necessary.

So how does that work? Today we're going to discuss Charlie hebdo and I'm going to talk about the cartoons but not show them? That's not a neutral position is it? It's accepting that the cartoons were out of order.

 

[Mation]

Not really similar IMO, more like giving examples of racist speech, attitudes, and behaviour (with warnings before) and then having a discussion on that.

Which would be completely the wrong thing to do. Totally unfair on any of your learners who might be personally affected, putting them in the position of having to deal with it in class.

The teacher shouldn't have done it, imo. Wrong forum; especially if, as Spymaster notes, the Muslim children were told they could fuck off out of it if they didn't like it.

But obviously he should still have his head.

 

[LDC]

I can see a class being shown images that are to be discussed as to whether they are pornography or not for example. Victorians covering naked Greek statues to use a cliche, or newspaper page 3 or something. But there's no need to show pornography more generally to have a discussion about it as everyone would be generally aware of what it was. But that's very different to specific cartoons that would be very hard to discuss without having seen them. Unless your position is just 'they're wrong.'

 

[Pickman's model]

So how does that work? Today we're going to discuss Charlie hebdo and I'm going to talk about the cartoons but not show them? That's not a neutral position is it? It's accepting that the cartoons were out of order.

For a large number of people they were out of order. And not all of them killcrazy cultists

But you don't care about their views, you're not interested in persuading any of them

 

[platinumsage]

The comparison to porn is fatuous. You can discuss porn or depictions of Muhammed without examples. However these were specific cartoons being discussed, and the specific, arguably provocative style of the cartoons is directly relevant to the discussion. I don't think you can debate their role in French society without actually seeing them.

 

[LDC]

Which would be completely the wrong thing to do. Totally unfair on any of your learners who might be personally affected, putting them in the position of having to deal with it in class.

But that rules out discussion on all sorts of subjects that might personally affect students doesn't it? The students were offered the option to leave the class as well it seems.

Would you defend the parents taking their kids out of sex eduaction classes on these grounds as well then?

 

[danny la rouge]

At the risk of sounding like one of the children in question...yeah, but why?

I can imagine, and indeed have experience of, classes discussing such subjects appropriately.

The inclusion of the content in both the case of pornography and these cartoons would be gratuitous. There's no need for it to enable a productive discussion.

Kids no doubt can, will and have found these cartoons and pornography for themselves. I'm not arguing for any sort of bans, just I'm not sure teachers should be showing this kind of content in schools when it's not necessary.

I think the phrase you use there - “this kind of content” - is going to be at the root of why we aren’t going to agree on this. I don’t want to rerun the several Charlie Hebdo threads, so I’ll respectfully leave this discussion now.

Should anyone want to see my views on the CH cartoons, I can’t imagine I’ve moved my position much.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

We used to have an RE teacher who boasted how he wouldn't let his kids watch Captain Scarlet (indestructible), as said Captain could not be killed and always came back from the dead. This was blasphemy, apparently.

 

[chilango]

So how does that work? Today we're going to discuss Charlie hebdo and I'm going to talk about the cartoons but not show them? That's not a neutral position is it? It's accepting that the cartoons were out of order.

Nope it's accepting that some people (in the class, and the wider community) consider them out of order.

You can't wish that away.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which would be completely the wrong thing to do. Totally unfair on any of your learners who might be personally affected, putting them in the position of having to deal with it in class.

The teacher shouldn't have done it, imo. Wrong forum; especially if, as Spymaster notes, the Muslim children were told they could fuck off out of it if they didn't like it.

But obviously he should still have his head.

This kind of argument also gets made to restrict the teaching of evolution in schools. I think it's a dangerous path to go down when you avoid presenting certain ideas for fear of offending religious sensibility.

And in this case, the violent response is intended to shut down these kinds of discussions, to dictate how the non-believers are allowed to discuss the belief.

 

[chilango]

I think what people are missing from the comparison with porn is the idea of "obscenity".

 

[platinumsage]

Nope it's accepting that some people (in the class, and the wider community) consider them out of order.

You can't wish that away.

There are lots of things that some people in class and the wider community consider out of order, but which should definitely be taught in class.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nope it's accepting that some people (in the class, and the wider community) consider them out of order.

You can't wish that away.

Some people think this is out of order and so everyone is going to have to act in a way that treats it as out of order?

You see this way too much in publishing. Some shocking omissions are made to kid's books that will be published in both UK and US in order not to offend a religious minority in the US. It means that everyone misses out and the minority dictates the discourse.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

So how does that work? Today we're going to discuss Charlie hebdo and I'm going to talk about the cartoons but not show them? That's not a neutral position is it? It's accepting that the cartoons were out of order.

I think "offensive to some people" is what you were looking for. This is what Charlie Hebdo does and always has though.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are lots of things that some people in class and the wider community consider out of order, but which should definitely be taught in class.

Such as

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think what people are missing from the comparison with porn is the idea of "obscenity".

Some people consider sex ed to be obscenity.