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Teacher training: Teach First?

rutabowa said:
thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh, it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.
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sorry about that
 
miss direct said:
Oh I'm sorry, I don't want to put you off. It's not easy to get accepted, it's just easier to get onto Maths than primary, for example. For a more positive story, one of my friends did TF, she did her obligatory two years in a school in a not very nice part of the UK, then got a job at a very nice international school in Turkey.
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I didn't even do my 'obligatory' two years before heading off to sunnier climes.
 
rutabowa said:
the qualifications from teach first are "NQS" (newly qualified status) at the end of the 1st year, " Postgraduate Diploma in Education (PGDE), worth double the credits of a PGCE" at end of 2 years with the option of a Masters in the 3rd year. Have I been fooled by the terminology again? It made it sound like that was a higher qualification than a PGCE....
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I may well be wrong about it as I have a limited knowledge about what is and isn't recognised. I just have had some experience of employers focusing on specific qualifications.
Or the agencies who are hiring for positions.
 
I did a PGCE myself, but in my job one of my roles has been mentoring trainee teachers and leading on Teaching and Learning - including Teach First teachers. I am not a fan of the programme. I feel that Teach First students are a little bit "cannon-foddery". I'm thinking of one very lovely student teacher in particular. She arrived after her summer holiday "training camp", very idealistic into the school where I was working at the time, which had been described by the Daily Mail as the worst school in Britain. She really struggled to the point of a breakdown - and this was despite a lot of support.

In my opinion it also places a lot of pressure on staff who have to be there to support (and we all want to support but having a young person who has arrived with almost no training into a super-challenging environment is quite a strain on everyone.) I'm not sure if it's the same now but it used to be very much sold as "you will go into these challenging schools with these shit older lefty teachers and save the youth and our future and you will be headteacher within 5 years".

From what I have seen, TF typically go into challenging settings and in my experience some schools like to spend very little on their staffing and tend to over-hire TF etc with barely more experienced staff being asked to supervise/mentor.

However, if you could find a half-decent school with a half-decent ITT programme it could be ok I guess. Or if you are a particularly resilient person who can take short term shit to get your QTS and then move on somewhere, it could work. I certainly wouldn't want to put you off going into teaching. I think it's the best job in the world.
 
rutabowa said:
my degree is english, i got maths a-level A so I need to do a SKE course but I'm really naturally much better at maths I made a mistake picking the english degree... but anyway, I just don't know re: bursaries.... are you basically certain to get the bursary as long as you get a place on the course??
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Yes, definitely. A tax-free bursary, plus a student loan if you want, plus grants for your dependants (like your son), plus childcare costs. Financially it's probably better than TeachFirst.
 
rutabowa said:
it's ok you weren't to know, I should maybe have just celebrated for a bit before posting on here. It is still good news.
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best to go in knowing what's in store. I didn't become a teacher but spent a few years working closely with teachers in schools and I observed many lessons. At my first school, I was offered sponsorship (or whatever it's called ) by my school for one of these programmes, but I'd already seen enough to know it wasn't for me. I'd advise volunteering first and visiting more than one school just to observe lessons. If you think you can handle it after that, go for it.
 
Orang Utan said:
best to go in knowing what's in store. I didn't become a teacher but spent a few years working closely with teachers in schools and I observed many lessons. At my first school, I was offered sponsorship (or whatever it's called ) by my school for one of these programmes, but I'd already seen enough to know it wasn't for me. I'd advise volunteering first and visiting more than one school just to observe lessons. If you think you can handle it after that, go for it.
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There no lesson observations allowed this year of course! I do have a lot more experience than eg graduates would do... like running workshops with kids etc... also been surrounded by teaching my whole life, as my parents both were and my sister an b-i-l are both really good inspiring teachers.... so I have a good idea what's involved... but that's still nothing like actually being in a classroom and doing it I'm sure! But, I have a good idea of what's involved.
 
nagapie said:
So absolutely tons of the teachers at my school come from Teach First. It was totally conceived to get unqualified teachers into the classroom on the cheap and therefore undermine teachers' degrees (and keep them away from Marxist institutions). Most of the applicants are young and very middle class, many leave after a few years because teaching is hard.
But lots of them do become very good teachers and the most talented, clever and left leaning teacher in my school came via that route. Depends a lot on your school as to how good your training ends up being, it's mostly down to the department, but then I'd say the same about PGCEs. Teach First is massive, not going to go away so if I were you, I'd probably look for who was going to pay me the most money to train because you're a sought after Maths teacher and it will be the only time as a teacher you'll ever be able to be self-serving.
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Ahh this is very interesting and useful thank you...
 
nagapie said:
So absolutely tons of the teachers at my school come from Teach First. It was totally conceived to get unqualified teachers into the classroom on the cheap and therefore undermine teachers' degrees (and keep them away from Marxist institutions). Most of the applicants are young and very middle class, many leave after a few years because teaching is hard.
But lots of them do become very good teachers and the most talented, clever and left leaning teacher in my school came via that route. Depends a lot on your school as to how good your training ends up being, it's mostly down to the department, but then I'd say the same about PGCEs. Teach First is massive, not going to go away so if I were you, I'd probably look for who was going to pay me the most money to train because you're a sought after Maths teacher and it will be the only time as a teacher you'll ever be able to be self-serving.
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In your opinion does the PGDE you get at the end of the 2nd year of Teach First not carry the sane weight as a PGCE? They definitely imply it carries MORE weight, like it is almost a Masters.... but do you think it's a less useful qualification?
 
rutabowa said:
In your opinion does the PGDE you get at the end of the 2nd year of Teach First not carry the sane weight as a PGCE? They definitely imply it carries MORE weight, like it is almost a Masters.... but do you think it's a less useful qualification?
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I think that a PGCE is the equivalent of 1/3 of a Masters (60 credits) whilst a PGDE would be 2/3 of a Masters (120 credits) meaning that were you to put these qualifications towards a Master's (though you'd need to check the regs carefully) the PGDE would put you closer to finishing.

The PGCE on the other hand remains a more "familiar" qualification. more people. More people are aware of it and what it means.

(Speaking as someone with a PGCE, a PGDip and a Master's - all unrelated!)
 
chilango said:
I think that a PGCE is the equivalent of 1/3 of a Masters (60 credits) whilst a PGDE would be 2/3 of a Masters (120 credits) meaning that were you to put these qualifications towards a Master's (though you'd need to check the regs carefully) the PGDE would put you closer to finishing.

The PGCE on the other hand remains a more "familiar" qualification. more people. More people are aware of it and what it means.

(Speaking as someone with a PGCE, a PGDip and a Master's - all unrelated!)
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Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?

I watched the BBC tv series where they follow 4 students fresh out of university on the scheme last night. On the one hand it makes you hate the whole thing, as obviously the students they picked to follow are entertainingly extremely posh and young and clueless, to make good tv. On the other hand, it made me think "well I am obviously nothing like these guys, so maybe I could do more good than them, and maybe the nature of the course has changed over the years since." (as a lot of the application questions I did seemed specifically designed to filter arrogant people like that out of the course).

I definitely made a decision to try for a secondary maths PGCE course with bursary... but I'll still do the teach first second stage interview, it sounds intense with a lot of practical work so that can only be a good experience, plus I've got few more questions to ask them now.
 
rutabowa said:
Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?
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We'll...it's not quite that straightforward!

PGCert, PGDip and Masters are all "Level 7" qualifications.

The main advantage the PGDip has over a PGCert is that is that if you wanted to do a Master's and your PGDip credits were accepted towards it (not always the case, you'd need to check in any specific case) you'd have less work to do to gain the Masters.

The main advantage a PGCE has is that people know what it is. It is an established credential. This may change.

There will also be pockets of snobbery about which institution issues the bit of paper in each case. Some Universities are viewed, by some, as having higher status than others. This can - occasionally - matter when job hunting.

Beyond this I'm not sure there's much material difference between the two bits of paper tbh. I think your choice should be more about which route offers the most suitable (financially, training wise, support wise, kniwled/experience wise. logistically etc etc) for you in your particular circumstances.
 
chilango said:
rutabowa, I think my brotherightve have done secondary maths via Teach First. I've asked him.
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OHH that would be amazing if you have a chance! What I am lacking at the moment is a perspective from anyone who has actually done it, apart from internet reviews (which generally seem to rave about the experience, whilst also emphasising how tough and intense it is).
 
rutabowa said:
Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?

I watched the BBC tv series where they follow 4 students fresh out of university on the scheme last night. On the one hand it makes you hate the whole thing, as obviously the students they picked to follow are entertainingly extremely posh and young and clueless, to make good tv. On the other hand, it made me think "well I am obviously nothing like these guys, so maybe I could do more good than them, and maybe the nature of the course has changed over the years since." (as a lot of the application questions I did seemed specifically designed to filter arrogant people like that out of the course).

I definitely made a decision to try for a secondary maths PGCE course with bursary... but I'll still do the teach first second stage interview, it sounds intense with a lot of practical work so that can only be a good experience, plus I've got few more questions to ask them now.
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I think chilango has answered that better than I could. I doubt it would matter to any state UK school as they're all short of maths teachers and would interview you on merit. I'm not sure how it works with international schools but once again, I think any teaching degree with experience from the UK would be fine.
They might not want you at the posh schools in the UK but I imagine that not having a Maths degree is already likely to take you off their lists. And you know, being a commoner and not a Tory.
 
rutabowa said:
OHH that would be amazing if you have a chance! What I am lacking at the moment is a perspective from anyone who has actually done it, apart from internet reviews (which generally seem to rave about the experience, whilst also emphasising how tough and intense it is).
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He did Schools Direct, here's what he has to say...

Schools Direct...the qualification was QTS.

We did work alongside a University to get a PGCE but not all Schools Direct courses offer that.

I went on to do some extra study to get a PGDipE.

Training process is good but it differs from school to school, the training I got was pretty crap but as a mentor myself I've made sure that the training my mentees have had is good.

Teach First is pretty much similar to Schools Direct but has the benefit of the summer placement, if I'd got a 1st I'd have gone down that route personally...
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nagapie said:
I think chilango has answered that better than I could. I doubt it would matter to any state UK school as they're all short of maths teachers and would interview you on merit. I'm not sure how it works with international schools but once again, I think any teaching degree with experience from the UK would be fine.
They might not want you at the posh schools in the UK but I imagine that not having a Maths degree is already likely to take you off their lists. And you know, being a commoner and not a Tory.
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as far as I've been able to work out, internationally PGDE is just as recognised as a PGCE, if not more so (I am checking this with my FIL who teaches in mexico though)... and yes you are correct in thinking I have no interest whatsoever in private/posh schools so that def isn't an issue!
 
chilango said:
He did Schools Direct, here's what he has to say...
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Thank you very much. I'll def be asking in the interview if the PGDE is a definite outcome at the end of the 2 Teach First years; it def sounds like it is on their website, but I also def don't want to assume that. But for the rest of this week I'm concentrating on looking at PGCE courses.
 
I've just got a job as an Academic Mentor for Teach First to help kids catch up after COVID.

I'm not sure how it's going to work yet. It seems pretty ludicrous that you're considered qualified to teach anybody after 2 weeks of internet training. But I have some teaching experience and lots of experience with kids.

I think I'd to teach primary after this and I'm using this job to find out if I'd like it, or if I'd prefer another role in school.

I'll need a funded option and I haven't found any bursaries for primary, so my options are Teach First, Schools Direct or a SCITT. Please correct me if there is a bursary for primary, I'd love to be wrong about that.
 
Bears said:
I'll need a funded option and I haven't found any bursaries for primary, so my options are Teach First, Schools Direct or a SCITT. Please correct me if there is a bursary for primary, I'd love to be wrong about that.
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Unfortunately I think you're right sorry, no bursaries for primary at all. And as far as Teach First goes the primary course is full already for this year, so if you apply next year make sure you do it early as it seems to fill up quickets. BUT if you do the course search here, then you can filter by "salaried course only" and there were quite a few salaried primary courses (at least near me): Find postgraduate teacher training courses

good luck with the mentoring! when's that starting?
 
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rutabowa said:
Unfortunately I think you're right sorry, no bursaries for primary at all. And as far as Teach First goes the primary course is full already for this year, so if you apply next year make sure you do it early as it seems to fill up quickets. BUT if you do the course search here, then you can filter by "salaried course only" and there were quite a few salaried primary courses (at least near me): Find postgraduate teacher training courses

good luck with the mentoring! when's that starting?
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My nearest one is 26 miles away. I think I might have to persuade a school to get involved. That might work. I'm quite persuasive :D

I'm completing my training today and going into the school on Monday. I'm really happy about the school - I know that they do some great work and I can learn a lot from them.
 
Spent a long time filling out the UCAS application, only to ring up my top 3 choices and find out that without a maths degree they would just immediately discard my application for secondary maths... luckily the 4th call (and every call so far after that) had better news. Lesson is: definitely speak to the course providers before you submit the UCAS application (I haven't submitted it yet so all is well, so far.... was just an unpleasant half an hour where I thought all my plans were shattered, which they would have been if I had submitted it as it was originally).
 
Here's another thing to bear in mind, from what I could work out: I understand what people are saying about the salary from Teach First or other salaried courses: although it's true that for secondary maths you get a bursary that is almost the same amount of money, and salaried course get tax deducted, with the salaried courses you also get tuition fees paid, whereas with a bursary you have to pay the tuition fees (about £9000) out of them (or get a loan). So you do end up with quite a lot less money, all told.
 
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