Taoism/Anarchism

[maomao]

By the way. For anyone actually wanting to read philosophical daoism (the only kind worth bothering with really, the religious type is reduced to a few priests in Hong Kong and Malaysia who make a living out of funerals) the Laozi (Lao Tzu) is probably not the best start. I would recomment the Longman English edition of the Zhuangzi. The Laozi is very abstract.

 

[maomao]

When I read parts of the Tao te Ching I thought it was a horrible facist book, all about being a wise ruler and keeping the people ignorant.

Well Laozi's market was rulers rather than people. He was probably a travelling court philosopher (if he existed, it would probably be better to say that his writings originated from the writings of travelling court philosphers) at a time when China was sploit into lots of small kingdoms. The philosophy of 'keep your head down and stay out of trouble' did quite well in this environment.

Zhuangzi is a lot better honestly.

 

[Gmart]

Well Laozi's market was rulers rather than people. He was probably a travelling court philosopher (if he existed, it would probably be better to say that his writings originated from the writings of travelling court philosphers) at a time when China was sploit into lots of small kingdoms. The philosophy of 'keep your head down and stay out of trouble' did quite well in this environment.

Zhuangzi is a lot better honestly.

Sure it's good as a beginning, quite aesop's fables, and enjoyable, but the Tao Te Ching is the primary text for a reason and is the second most translated book of all time, so I wouldn't dismiss it quite so easily. It makes more sense the more you read it, and is good advice with the minimum bullsh*t.

 

[Fruitloop]

When I read parts of the Tao te Ching I thought it was a horrible facist book, all about being a wise ruler and keeping the people ignorant.

Not fascist, more like Plato's Republic. The rulers are supposed to 'put away all sharp things' in themselves, i.e. any tendencies that could harm their subjects. Taoists lived within an imperial system and worked with it not against it (remember?!), but were quite prepared to topple the throne by assasination or other means if the ruler misbehaved.

 

[Fruitloop]

For the real philosophical stuff you need to read the thee-way debates (trialectics? ) between Mohists, Confucians and Taoists. That's where the meaty philosophical points come up, not in the short books of aphorisms.

 

[maomao]

Sure it's good as a beginning, quite aesop's fables, and enjoyable, but the Tao Te Ching is the primary text for a reason and is the second most translated book of all time, so I wouldn't dismiss it quite so easily. It makes more sense the more you read it, and is good advice with the minimum bullsh*t.

What does 'most translated' mean? Translated to the most languages? (I doubt it, Wikipedia though claims 250 Western languages) Most copies published in languages other than classical Chinese (in which case any modern Chinese copy would be a 'translation')? Or most different translations into English by people adding spiritual nonsense to what is originally a very sparse text? If it's the latter then that's nothing to boast about and I would dispute that many of the New Age style books bursting off the bookshelves are translations as such but rather commentaries. And commentaries that take the original text completely out of context at that.

I have a degree in Classical Chinese (and studied philosophy extensively though my main interest was historical writings) and mostly wouldn't bother with the Dao De Jing as it is so sparse that any translation necessarily involves adding interpretations and explanations above and beyond that contained in the original text. Given that the book was the product of a very different culture two and a half millenia ago, this almost inevitably puts it out of context. The Lau and Legge translations are fine. I haven't seen the Le Guin translation but much as I loved her books as a child I find it hard to believe that it is any better than any of the other New Age bullshit on the bookshelves.

Comparing the Zhuangzi to Aesop's fables proves that you've read the book out of context. Zhuangzi puts Daoism in its historical context, in debate with Confucianism, Mohism, Legalism, Logicalism and the other philosophical schools that existed at the time. I guess if you are only interested in Daoism and don't know who the characters in the book represent then they are stripped of their relevance and might as well be rabbits and foxes. The Dao De Jing is great material for stoned students nodding and going 'wow man, that's deep' but for actually understanding Daoism in it's historical context and what it actually means as a philosophy the Zhuangzi has no equal.

 

[maomao]

For the real philosophical stuff you need to read the thee-way debates (trialectics? ) between Mohists, Confucians and Taoists. That's where the meaty philosophical points come up, not in the short books of aphorisms.

And the legalists, and the logicians etc. etc. The time wasn't referred to as 'the hundred schools' for nothing.

 

[kyser_soze]

Does anyone know of any decent books which compare/contrast the Greek and Chinese schools?

 

[Gmart]

What does 'most translated' mean?

That's a fair cop!!

I must have been well tired last night. I meant the second most printed book of all time, at least that's what i was told a few years ago! Could be wrong!?

Given that the book was the product of a very different culture two and a half millenia ago, this almost inevitably puts it out of context.

I don't agree with this. It talks about ageless problems which are just as relevant now as they no doubt were then. For example I remember reading that:

Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

And years ago when I first read this, it helped me to see that that was exactly what I was doing, and it became a bit of a revelation for me.

I like reading it every now and then as it always gives me a good viewpoint on things. I don't find it preachy as I do with other texts, the lack of an anthropomorphic God appeals to me as I feel that is just a human conceit.

I also like the 365 tao book as well (online here), which gives a broader picture of all manner of emotions and issues.

 

[maomao]

That's a fair cop!!

I must have been well tired last night. I meant the second most printed book of all time, at least that's what i was told a few years ago! Could be wrong!?

I would seriously doubt it's been printed more times than the Koran. And the Bible's number one. In my experience Sunzi Bingfa (The Art of War) is more widely read by Westerners.

I don't agree with this. It talks about ageless problems which are just as relevant now as they no doubt were then. For example I remember reading that:

Quote:
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

And years ago when I first read this, it helped me to see that that was exactly what I was doing, and it became a bit of a revelation for me.

Which is fine. That's drawing comfort from text to deal with your problems. But there's nothing in that quote that you won't get from Dear Miriam.

 

[Gmart]

Which is fine. That's drawing comfort from text to deal with your problems. But there's nothing in that quote that you won't get from Dear Miriam.

That's just a facile dismissal. There is nothing in any text that you won't get from Dear Miriam.

As a matter of fact I recognise that these texts give many people solace. Many people have a variety of texts which they turn to which gives them comfort and I for one see no problem in that.

As for the Tao Te Ching, it has obviously been in print for a long time and I would suggest that before dismissing it so nonchalantly, you might remember this. It might not do it for you, but as a text I find it beautiful, visionary and relevant. And so have countless millions others.

 

[maomao]

As for the Tao Te Ching, it has obviously been in print for a long time and I would suggest that before dismissing it so nonchalantly, you might remember this. It might not do it for you, but as a text I find it beautiful, visionary and relevant. And so have countless millions others.

Which translation are you using? The excerpt you gave above seems a little bloated. I would suggest getting hold of a dual language copy and a Classical Chinese dictionary and struggling your way through a couple of chapters of the original (Classical Chinese is a very grammatically simple language, it's not as hard as you may think) before you claim any knowledge of this text.

 

[Gmart]

.... before you claim any knowledge of this text.

Look that is no way to discuss things. Just because you are very knowledgeable, doesn't mean that others are not. I have looked at many translations of the Tao Te Ching, because they do vary, and different translations can give different insight. My current favourite is here.

The idea that one is not worthy to discuss a topic with if they haven't sat down and waded thru with dual language copy and a Classical Chinese dictionary is just you struggling to respond to my points. It is you saying that you are far too knowledgeable to bother yourself to comment on my posts.

Actually I have read and thought about the Tao Te Ching to consider that I have an opinion. There are many passages which are very good and which strike to the core of some issues we have today.

For example:

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

Whoever can see through all fear
will always be safe.

Which is very poignant to me. You can go on about this or that translation, but these words talk to me and they make sense.

 

[Fruitloop]

Richard Wilhelm was good, although the two-translations thing is a bummer unless you read German.

 

[maomao]

For example:

Quote:
When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

I'm very torn on that passage. It's cute and clever but it's not a translation.

My advice to have a go at the original was not an attempt to pull rank on you but real advice and a reminder that if you don't you are only dealing with interpretations as in the above. While Classical Chinese may be grammatically simple the difficulty lies in the interpretation of indivicual characters.

For example, the opening line:

道可道, 非常道
Dao ke dao, fei chang dao.

道 dao can mean path/way or be a verb to follow a path. Both in the physical sense of a real path and in the extended sense of a an intellectual or spiritual route. It can also be the verb 'to speak' as well as the object 'that which is spoken'. (in modern Chinese it has a further half dozen extended meanings but I think we can stick with these three for this.)

可 ke can be taken as meaning 'to be able' though it could also carry a sense of easiness.

非 fei is a negative, equal to 'not'

常 chang means common, frequent, regular, constant.

Fiddle about with it for a while and you can come up with a couple of dozen reasonable translations however English translations often translate 常 chang as 'real' or 'true'. Lau translates it as 'constant' which is perhaps a bit better but still carries a sense of something that is untouchable and unfollowable. Quite where Mitchell gets 'eternal' from I'm not sure.

That's just the opening line. Relying on translations you are essentially relying on interpretations. In the time it took you to read 4 or 5 different translations you could have had a crack at the original yourself.

 

[Gmart]

I appreciate exactly where you're coming from and I have always taken such things into account when reading different interpretations.

The first line is a perfect place to start as it is key for me. It illustrates the meaninglessness of talking about the ineffable. I recognise that reading the original language of any text will give a clearer view of the message the author was originally trying to convey yet I also recognise the need not to get too distracted by this. The most important thing for me is my interpretation and the passage I quoted you relates very well to life whether it is a strictly accurate translation or not. The first line shows this limitation clearly.

As you said:

in modern Chinese it has a further half dozen extended meanings

And that will always be a limitation.

 

[maomao]

As you said:

Quote:
in modern Chinese it has a further half dozen extended meanings

And that will always be a limitation.

Just to clarify, classical and modern Chinese are as different as Latin and French and that's why I recommended buying a dictionary of Classical Chinese.

I would still recommend the Zhuangzi as the primary source for understanding Daoism in context.

 

[Gmart]

Just to clarify, classical and modern Chinese are as different as Latin and French and that's why I recommended buying a dictionary of Classical Chinese.

I would still recommend the Zhuangzi as the primary source for understanding Daoism in context.

I'm sure we are able to agree to disagree on this, and thanks for the tip.

I appreciate that all texts should ideally be read by a native in the original form, otherwise the full meaning can be obscured. However one of the things I like the most about the Tao is the simplicity of the message. It is really child's play and I am happy I found all the texts. For example the butterfly metaphor in the Zhuangzi is a great metaphor and one which I appreciated, yet I do not feel the need to meditate on its meaning; on the contrary it makes me want to be.