SWP gone Green:, genuine or genuine disaster?

[greenman]

I don't think anyone on here is talking about "banning the SWP" from demos. Nor is anyone disputing that some individual Swappies are well up on Green issues and genuinely concerned.

The point being made is that the historical record indicates that barring a major change in the ideology and modus operandi of the organisation as a whole then large scale SWP mobilisation around any particular topic or issue will ring alarm bells about possible imminent frontism/manipulation/exploitation which frequently has not been on balance long term beneficial to the cause or issue so adopted.

So, I hope the SWP puts lots of energy into mobilisation around green/climate change issues - certainly putting more emphasis into that area than they did in the course of the Respect election campaign.
I hope that they have a major ideological conversion to less alienating and manipulative politics too, but I would not wager too much money on this, and so would agree with those on here who urge vigilance and defensive measures by the wider left/green movement. Maybe the SWP/Respect have as much to learn from the green movement as the non-socialist parts of the green movement have to learn from socialists.

Agree with Bernie on the importance of decentralism, federalism (or confederalism to be more specific) and transparency. But even these do not remove the need for vigilance and proper structures/mechanisms at a local level.

 

[greenbrain]

Round where I live a couple of SWP /Respect members took the initiative locally in starting off activity connected with the climate change campaign; I have also been involved and it has been instructive to see the process close up. From this experience I believe that the reason the SWP finish up dominating so many campaigns is that they show a level of enthusiasm and commitment in the early stages that other organisations / individuals don't. It's up to the rest of us to 'out-activate' them if and when we find that undesriable.

I also believe that the particular individuals involved in this campaign are genuine about climate change, whilst I retain suspicions about the motives of the organisation in general.

 

[treelover]

As the OP, I will reiterate, although not the worlds greatest green, to me and miliions of others, particularly now in the third world, the challenge of climate change is not a issue, it is the issue. While i don't doubt the sincerity of some individual members, any group that uses it for its own ends will be finished.

Laptop, maybe this was tongue in cheek, but imo, this is exactly the problem with the Green movement, much of it is too counter-cultural: my sympathies lie with a synthesis of socialist and green ideas, which can spread out to the widest possible audience, long term, the SWP will fail in this.

Memo to CC: Anarchists have better sex and drugs. You cannot compete with this lure

Mutley, curb your faux outrage, if you apply your usual tactics to the Green movement (which I am not really part of,) the result will be bigger numbers, massive publicity and media exposure(for chosen fellow travellers) but then ultimately, schism, fallouts, decline.

ps no disrespect to those who do take heroic steps to stop roads, it's the paranoid twats i have a problem with)

Btw Greenman, , a friend of mine went to an Alliance for Green Socialism meeting (with Hilary Wainwright)and despite the average age being 65, she said it was an excellent and productive meeting.

Greenman said

There is already a group which merges green and socialist viewpoints far more successfully than the SWP could ever hope to - If I ever consider leaving the Greens it would probably be the other organisation that I would consider joining -

 

[levien]

The level of fear in the genuine broad mobalisation SWP activity is bringing to the green movement (or did bring on Saturday) is of note for two main reasons.

1) Like anti-deportation campaigning, the green movement is one of the last areas dominated by the activist ghetto.
2)Some activists are terrrified by what a flood of ordinary folk would do to their "green cvommunity."

All major campaigns at the moment have the potential to enjoy a massive amount of public support. The only successful way of mobalising/engaging that support so far has been through the united front model and SWP activity. If those in the green movement wants to maintain their influence (and I'm sure that I speak for all those in the SWP when I say I have no interest in "taking" it off them) then they need to find a method of mobalising numbers off the back of their own activity.

If they don't then they have only themselves to blame when groups like the SWP with a higher level of activity, better implantation in communities start bringing more people then them to demonstrations/actions etc. The SWP were undoubtably responsible for a significant part of the increased turn out. We brought 70 people from Manchester Uni for example alongside activists from respect and 3rd eye at a weeks notice. Could those in the green movement pull off similar mobalisations? If not why not..

 

[treelover]

oh yes, which communities would these be then, clearly not the 'council estate scum' beloved of Julie Waterson(ANL head honcho)

better implantation in communities

 

[Barry Kade]

Yes, too many 'activists' direct action/green types dont engage in 'mass mobilisation' tactics, its true. They stay in activist ghetto's.

But what happens when they don't?

A funny thing happened back down in Colchester during the anti-war mobilisations: A bunch of us non-aligned, non-swp activists from a range of backgrounds got togther a big peace campaign. This group did loads of stalls, leafletting, postering all the time, mobilising coachloads for all the London demo's and got hundreds for local protests and meetings, even once got about a thousand people together.

What did the SWP do? No longer able to 'be the best activists' and dominate through this claim and bureacracy, they went into crisis. They actually split from this main campaign and tried to set up a rival 'united front' on their own! - a bizarre tactic which collapsed and alienated them further.

Lesson? Quit moaning and get a paste table...

 

[TremulousTetra]

One only has to look at the shell that is the STWC to see the effects on what was once was a vibrant and diverse network.

so if the SWp had not maximised cooporation by solidifying those centrally organising the massive demonstrations behind the highest common denominator aim/slogan/ideology "stop the War",how would this have been beneficial to the anti-war movement in your opinion? Smaller demonstrations, BUT more caderised, and so long-lasting activity etc?

Frats Rmp3

 

[gurrier]

The level of fear in the genuine broad mobalisation SWP activity is bringing to the green movement (or did bring on Saturday) is of note for two main reasons.

1) Like anti-deportation campaigning, the green movement is one of the last areas dominated by the activist ghetto.
2)Some activists are terrrified by what a flood of ordinary folk would do to their "green cvommunity."

Levien, take your head out of your ass and listen to what people are saying. People are concerned about the SWP trying to take over the green movement, nothing whatsoever to do with any of the delusional self-justifying shite you spew above.

It must be nice to live in such a carefully constructed world where everybody else's opinions about their motivations can be ignored and your little lenin leadership is an authoritative source of information on what everybody else thinks and why. Frees up the old brain from thinking a bit I should say. Have you tried heroin? I reckon it's a slightly more enjoyable way of turning off the frontal lobes, you should try it.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yes, too many 'activists' direct action/green types dont engage in 'mass mobilisation' tactics, its true. They stay in activist ghetto's.

But what happens when they don't?

A funny thing happened back down in Colchester during the anti-war mobilisations: A bunch of us non-aligned, non-swp activists from a range of backgrounds got togther a big peace campaign. This group did loads of stalls, leafletting, postering all the time, mobilising coachloads for all the London demo's and got hundreds for local protests and meetings, even once got about a thousand people together.

What did the SWP do? No longer able to 'be the best activists' and dominate through this claim and bureacracy, they went into crisis. They actually split from this main campaign and tried to set up a rival 'united front' on their own! - a bizarre tactic which collapsed and alienated them further.

Lesson? Quit moaning and get a paste table...

Interesting. Could be well worth keeping this firmly in mind over the next couple of years.

 

[treelover]

Can't go into too much detail but i think the STW movement would have developed its own momentum without SWP involvement: at local meetings they were massively outnumbered, indeed at one meeting, the local AW movement mobilised to outvote them when they tried to use their usual 'packing' tactics. Thousands of peole raised money, put on gigs, etc to help the cause, plenty more took independent spontaneous action, etc as well. Imo, if the issue is relevant and perhaps more salient, 'immediate' then mass opposition will grow anyway.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Yes, too many 'activists' direct action/green types dont engage in 'mass mobilisation' tactics, its true. They stay in activist ghetto's.

But what happens when they don't?

A funny thing happened back down in Colchester during the anti-war mobilisations: A bunch of us non-aligned, non-swp activists from a range of backgrounds got togther a big peace campaign. This group did loads of stalls, leafletting, postering all the time, mobilising coachloads for all the London demo's and got hundreds for local protests and meetings, even once got about a thousand people together.

What did the SWP do? No longer able to 'be the best activists' and dominate through this claim and bureacracy, they went into crisis. They actually split from this main campaign and tried to set up a rival 'united front' on their own! - a bizarre tactic which collapsed and alienated them further.

Lesson? Quit moaning and get a paste table...

excellent! I genuinely mean that.

One of my criticisms of the SWP, of which I am only a card-carrying member now, is that they really try to spread themselves to thin. it is impossible to cover all the issues that they try to cover, properly. I fully understand the motive, as usually every cause is important, but it just isn't physically possible to always do what needs doing.

I believe your last sentence is absolutely right. The way to prove that your methods are better is in the class struggle. don't waste time trying to undermine sw, put that effort into a outperforming them and reap the dividends for the working class movement and your organisations if you do.

fraternal greetings, ResistanceMP3

 

[Barry Kade]

"Nobody does it better, sometimes I wish they would"

While I'm critical of the SWP, I think that they still play a vital (if contradictory) role. We do need some sort of left/socialist organisation to pull things together. With STWC at least we did get both mass mobilisation and clear opposition to the occupation etc. Without the SWP, a traditional peace movement/liberal left leadership would have been even weaker. I still remember 1991 when CND and others pushed aside the SWP and 'lead' the movement against the Gulf war with the awfull slogan 'sanctions not war'! (As if sanctions would not be a slower genocide). It could be worse!

Thus I stick with the great insight about all this in Carly Simon's Bond theme 'The Spy Who Loved me'.

"Nobody does it better, sometimes I wish they would"

 

[rebel warrior]

It is disgusting if the Socialist Workers Party now claim to care about the future of the planet - the last thing we need is a mass movement organising militant protests about climate change and trying to raise awareness about the issue in general.

What the Green movement surely needs instead are more rich Tories like Zac Goldsmith (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/comment/0,9236,1656821,00.html) making sure that multinational corporations can prepare better propaganda. How will get more of such 'top quality' people supporting us if we let more 'working class heroes' support the movement? After all, in the words of Jonathan Porritt, capitalism can save the world if we let it - and he is part of the Government so he must know better than any Marxist about what needs to be done. We must use such arguments about how great capitalism is when it comes to the environment to stop the SWP 'going green'.

 

[rebel warrior]

There might be hope yet...

With luck, David Cameron will beat David Davis on Tuesday and then the Green movement can look forward to the Conservative Party's support.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/toryleader/story/0,16473,1657405,00.html

David Cameron, expected to be crowned as the new Conservative leader this week, was yesterday planning a series of early speeches to promote a more 'caring and engaged' Tory agenda on issues such as urban poverty, climate change and work-life balance.

Thank god there are sincere well meaning people like David Cameron (Eton and Oxford, don't you know?) with a long pedigree of support for progressive campaigns who are starting to join the Green movement now - they are far more welcome than the scum of the SWP who are only trying to 'greenwash' themselves and clearly don't give a fuck about the planet. I do hope the Conservatives come on board the Campaign against Climate change - that should help keep out the likes of the SWP...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Just to be clear; I don't for one minute not think there are some genuine members but history has shown that they can used pretty borg like to carry out anything the CC demands. Posts like RW shows how defensive the more indoctrinated members can be which again proves the point that any green effort needs to be wary of the SWP.

 

[In Bloom]

It is disgusting if the Socialist Workers Party now claim to care about the future of the planet - the last thing we need is a mass movement organising militant protests about climate change and trying to raise awareness about the issue in general.

Militant protests? You really are fucking deluded. Bussing a bunch of people in to walk around London for a bit, what impact did it have?

 

[rebel warrior]

Militant protests? You really are fucking deluded. Bussing a bunch of people in to walk around London for a bit, what impact did it have?

Too true, too true - that is why cosy chats with David Cameron and important captains of industry are the way for the Green movement to go. Taking to the streets does nothing - as the anti-war movement showed.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Militant protests? You really are fucking deluded. Bussing a bunch of people in to walk around London for a bit, what impact did it have?

Don't let him derail the thread!

 

[treelover]

RW and strawmen arguments

 

[mutley]

Levien, take your head out of your ass and listen to what people are saying. People are concerned about the SWP trying to take over the green movement, nothing whatsoever to do with any of the delusional self-justifying shite you spew above.

It must be nice to live in such a carefully constructed world where everybody else's opinions about their motivations can be ignored and your little lenin leadership is an authoritative source of information on what everybody else thinks and why. Frees up the old brain from thinking a bit I should say. Have you tried heroin? I reckon it's a slightly more enjoyable way of turning off the frontal lobes, you should try it.

Takes a proponent of such shite to recognise it... If you strip out the abuse from this post there ain't much left.

 

[Barry Kade]

Yeah, we know that Tory scum like Zac Goldsmith own 'the Ecologist' magazine. But Rebel Warrior is over the top when he tries to smear the green movment as a whole with this.

I'm not a green, I'm a red environmentalist, but my observerations of the greens show that Rebel Warrior is just nuts here.

We can all see that the Green Party have shifted to the left over the past 10-15 years. So have groups as diverse as FoE and Earth First. This is a result of the revolt against neo-liberal globalisation over the past decade. Come on Rebel Warrior, he baby, you can do better than this hysterical rubbish! Cant you?

 

[mutley]

Anyway i'd have thought that judging from the past attittude to stw demos then the protest in London should have been denounced as pointless. What does it matter if the swp go on it? All demos are pointless marching from A to B.

What's the direct action slant gonna be. Blockade power stations?

 

[In Bloom]

Too true, too true - that is why cosy chats with David Cameron and important captains of industry are the way for the Green movement to go.

Who has advocated that? Jesus

Taking to the streets does nothing - as the anti-war movement showed.

Please tell me you're not using the disaster that was the anti-Iraq war "movement" as an example of what works

 

[mutley]

Yeah, we know that Tory scum like Zac Goldsmith own 'the Ecologist' magazine. But Rebel Warrior is over the top when he tries to smear the green movment as a whole with this.

I'm not a green, I'm a red environmentalist, but my observerations of the greens show that Rebel Warrior is just nuts here.

We can all see that the Green Party have shifted to the left over the past 10-15 years. So have groups as diverse as FoE and Earth First. This is a result of the revolt against neo-liberal globalisation over the past decade. Come on Rebel Warrior, he baby, you can do better than this hysterical rubbish! Cant you?

I think RW's point is why are people getting so hot under the collar about the swp when there are much more threatening forces trying to coopt the Green movement.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Taking to the streets does nothing - as the anti-war movement showed.

He's got a point you know. The anti-war movement did show that.

A lot of those relatively apolitical people who did take to the streets are now sitting at home on their arses thinking "what good did that do, they just ignored (about 1-2% of the entire UK population) taking to the streets."

If a broad front does arise in relation to climate change, new nuclear build or whatever, we'd probably better give some thought to what else to do with all that energy besides 'taking to the streets'. For example, channelling it into some form of local or municipal sphere where it might actually make some difference, and which would be politically empowering for all those people rather than as disempowering as 'taking to the streets' turned out in practice.

 

[In Bloom]

What's the direct action slant gonna be. Blockade power stations?

Better than the liberal "Maybe if our leaders knew how terribly upset we all are, they'd change their minds" bollocks being espoused here

 

[Pilgrim]

With luck, David Cameron will beat David Davis on Tuesday and then the Green movement can look forward to the Conservative Party's support.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/toryleader/story/0,16473,1657405,00.html



Thank god there are sincere well meaning people like David Cameron (Eton and Oxford, don't you know?) with a long pedigree of support for progressive campaigns who are starting to join the Green movement now - they are far more welcome than the scum of the SWP who are only trying to 'greenwash' themselves and clearly don't give a fuck about the planet. I do hope the Conservatives come on board the Campaign against Climate change - that should help keep out the likes of the SWP...

Ah, RW.

Still pissed off that the Greens wouldn't roll over and allow your lot to use them in an electoral alliance?

From personal experience at a local level, I doubt very much that the 'help' of the SWP is what the Green movement needs or wants.

Locally, we've had the Socialist Alliance, in which the local SWP were heavily involved. It's now dead and buried, having dissolved in no small amount of acrimony.

We've also had the local branch of StWC, in which the SWP were also heavily involved. That seems to have died a death too. It has been moribund for some time, and I'm not even sure if it is still meeting anymore.

We also have the local branch of RESPECT, whose candidate at the last General Election polled less than the SLP candidate. The SLP candidate being only a paper candidate who seemingly did little or no real campaigning.

The Nuclear Free Coalition is NOT dominated by the local SWP. It comprises local pressure groups, the local Green Party, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, local CND is almost up and running, Trident Ploughshares, a local peace group and various individuals. Political affiliations run from Anarchist to UKIP. It is a real broad-based coalition that no one group is able to dominate. Since its inception, it has survived and grown.

Greenpeace are active in the city, and I'm looking forward to doing more work with them when the opportunity arises. They aren't dominated by any one faction either, and seem healthier for it.

And then there's Trident Ploughshares. After politely but firmly declining the SWP's attempts to 'organise the struggle', and being described by the local SWP organiser as 'a hostile organisation' for our trouble, the Plymouth Group has doubled in size from its inception and is a well-known organisation within the city.

The pattern being that those organisations dominated by the SWP seem to be either dead or dying, while those organisations that have stayed independent are still around and are growing in size, effectiveness and support.

What does this tell you, RW?

 

[Barry Kade]

What's the direct action slant gonna be. Blockade power stations?

Sounds good to me...

Then the A to B marches would make much more sense...as rallying points to gather the numbers, social forces and legitimacy for such mass direct action!

Thats what a decent 'revolutionary party' that was niether right-opportunist nor ultra-leftist would do....

 

[rebel warrior]

RW and strawmen arguments

Sorry - its just that this thread attacking the SWP as 'outside agitators' was reminiscent of some sort of gathering of reactionary businessmen complaining about a strike.

 

[Pilgrim]

Sorry - its just that this thread attacking the SWP as 'outside agitators' was reminiscent of some sort of gathering of reactionary businessmen complaining about a strike.

That's it, RW.

Keep digging.