Suzanne Moore
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UrbaneFox
They've doubled in price
Women must have the right to organise. We will not be silenced | Suzanne Moore
The treatment of Selina Todd this weekend was a warning. We have to protect women’s sex-based rights, says Guardian columnist Suzanne Moore
I think that she has been accused of being transphobic, and there was a petition against her.
I am very sorry if that was the case. Nothing in the Guardian, but the Mail is jubilant.
aha! March this year in fact.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Elite identity politics psychodrama. I hope both sides lose
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
She puts her case well.Women must have the right to organise. We will not be silenced | Suzanne Moore
The treatment of Selina Todd this weekend was a warning. We have to protect women’s sex-based rights, says Guardian columnist Suzanne Moorewww.theguardian.com
I think that she has been accused of being transphobic, and there was a petition against her.
I am very sorry if that was the case. Nothing in the Guardian, but the Mail is jubilant.
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Maggot
The Cake of Liberty
I can't see anything transphobic in that article.Women must have the right to organise. We will not be silenced | Suzanne Moore
The treatment of Selina Todd this weekend was a warning. We have to protect women’s sex-based rights, says Guardian columnist Suzanne Moore
I think that she has been accused of being transphobic, and there was a petition against her.
I am very sorry if that was the case. Nothing in the Guardian, but the Mail is jubilant.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Well it’s not her worst, but Women’s Plsce are a hate group and she misrepresents the trans position on women only spaces, but that’s just par for the course.
"Sex based rights" in itself is a massive dog whistle
Weird genitals obsessed toilet cops
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
and has had lots of pm’s of support
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Was about to post the same.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
A revealing insight into elite centrist liberalism. A never ending and ugly war between competing identity blocs. Utterly remote from the real world and the lived concerns of millions of people. These people....I mean...
“maybe they were scared and had been indoctrinated into the cult of righteousness that the Guardian embodies. At its best, the paper deserves to see itself as a beacon of the Left”
The deliberate surface level dipping in and out of various issues and campaigns - so that they can then write about it adopting the tone of authority.
The gossipy lunches where they belch out their profound ‘insights’. The world essentially revolving around them and what they think.
The absolute conviction that they are the narrating class that owns and controls the debate and cultural production. The ultimate expression of middle class politics in its most abstract form. A bourgeois world where what you think (about anything, but the more abstract the issue and over which you have zero interest or investment in actually doing anything) matters far more than what you do or might be engaged in.
Sweep ALL of them into the dustbin of history.....
unherd.com
“maybe they were scared and had been indoctrinated into the cult of righteousness that the Guardian embodies. At its best, the paper deserves to see itself as a beacon of the Left”
The deliberate surface level dipping in and out of various issues and campaigns - so that they can then write about it adopting the tone of authority.
The gossipy lunches where they belch out their profound ‘insights’. The world essentially revolving around them and what they think.
The absolute conviction that they are the narrating class that owns and controls the debate and cultural production. The ultimate expression of middle class politics in its most abstract form. A bourgeois world where what you think (about anything, but the more abstract the issue and over which you have zero interest or investment in actually doing anything) matters far more than what you do or might be engaged in.
Sweep ALL of them into the dustbin of history.....
Why I had to leave The Guardian
If you were bullied by 338 colleagues, what would you do?
unherd.com
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Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
The bourgeois liberal clique must be upset.
Typical man-hater.
Long and very edited post:
www.theguardian.com
^ not sure if this article was was of the nails in her guardian coffin.
JTG - I'm not especially fussed about toilets; I dont actually go out much/have to use them over the last few years, and usually aren't in crisis when I'm well enough to be out and about in cafes etc.
My home loo isn't gender neutral because I don't let men in my home any more.
I do believe that refuges, rape crisis centres, prisons, psychiatric wards etc should be same sex, with a third or mixed space provided. That's based on personal experience when accessing multiple single and mixed sex environments and services when I was really unwell (PTSD) and vulnerable. It didn't always go well.I dont really care if that makes me a weird genitals obsessed cop; I wasn't looking in the direction of anyone's pants. It was physicality in my proximity that triggered me.
I was fine with cis/nb (making no assumptions) police women/parmedics/hospital workers/helpline workers/support workers etc, but the times they weren't available were disastrous.
One night I didn't feel safe staying at home, so rang the refuge line
They could have accepted me but their hostel was full, and they redirected me to the mixed sex homeless shelter for emergency accommodation for the night. I knew a guy who had stayed there as a fairly tough rough sleeper, and he felt unsafe there; I also didn't feel safe around some of the other men I knew who stayed there regularly.
I slept rough instead, and went home the next day when I felt safe enough. I didn't need to stay away again, and haven't since, fortunately.
Our local women's aid is staffed only by cis and nb women as far as I'm aware, and that has actually made me less nervous about accessing support without having to specifically ask for a same sex worker or havung to ask to change an allocated worker because of a misfiring brain condition (with a root cause of experiences with physically and sexually violent men from childhood to adulthood).
I am fine with trans men (and for clarity I mean women who identify as men, not the reverse. I'm clarifying because I've encountered confusion before over what i mean by trans man).
I've had to use the equality act in the past to access same sex workers in my home for repairs and stuff, and having to justify why and explain to people the exact reasons why and trauma behind them just ends up feeling humiliating.
I think single and mixed sex facilities could work; I definitely see overlap and potential conflict between human rights, womens rights and trans rights, in terms of my own services, support or accommodation needs, and I have no idea how it can be worked through.
I have already been called right wing, a bigot, a terf, a woman hater, a female supremacist and an experience weaponizer elsewhere for saying all of the above. I am open to being educated, but I do draw some lines...
My experiences as an l?g?b? (depending on however you want to currently and historical classify me) woman of trying to address male sexual violence targeting cis/nb women within activist LGBTQI froendly community venues with safe spaces has ended up repeatedly with trans women and nb men leading the groups, and their general safety being prioritised over bisexual/lesbian (depending on how they currently identify) cis and nb women's safety (and I assume trans mens too) - as in the latter never gets properly addressed, in my experience at least.
I used to be vocal about trans rights and abolishing same sex spaces, and consenting to this on behalf of all other women. I revised my take on this after my experiences above - I am unhappy at what what i formerly advocated for, and what other women are now consenting to on my behalf against my wishes.
We need to keep talking about miscarriage – and share the pain | Suzanne Moore
Whether its in discussions of miscarriage or menstruation, the words ‘woman’ and ‘mother’ are being erased by some. Why can’t we just say that women and trans men have periods?
JTG - I'm not especially fussed about toilets; I dont actually go out much/have to use them over the last few years, and usually aren't in crisis when I'm well enough to be out and about in cafes etc.
My home loo isn't gender neutral because I don't let men in my home any more.
I do believe that refuges, rape crisis centres, prisons, psychiatric wards etc should be same sex, with a third or mixed space provided. That's based on personal experience when accessing multiple single and mixed sex environments and services when I was really unwell (PTSD) and vulnerable. It didn't always go well.I dont really care if that makes me a weird genitals obsessed cop; I wasn't looking in the direction of anyone's pants. It was physicality in my proximity that triggered me.
I was fine with cis/nb (making no assumptions) police women/parmedics/hospital workers/helpline workers/support workers etc, but the times they weren't available were disastrous.
One night I didn't feel safe staying at home, so rang the refuge line
They could have accepted me but their hostel was full, and they redirected me to the mixed sex homeless shelter for emergency accommodation for the night. I knew a guy who had stayed there as a fairly tough rough sleeper, and he felt unsafe there; I also didn't feel safe around some of the other men I knew who stayed there regularly.
I slept rough instead, and went home the next day when I felt safe enough. I didn't need to stay away again, and haven't since, fortunately.
Our local women's aid is staffed only by cis and nb women as far as I'm aware, and that has actually made me less nervous about accessing support without having to specifically ask for a same sex worker or havung to ask to change an allocated worker because of a misfiring brain condition (with a root cause of experiences with physically and sexually violent men from childhood to adulthood).
I am fine with trans men (and for clarity I mean women who identify as men, not the reverse. I'm clarifying because I've encountered confusion before over what i mean by trans man).
I've had to use the equality act in the past to access same sex workers in my home for repairs and stuff, and having to justify why and explain to people the exact reasons why and trauma behind them just ends up feeling humiliating.
I think single and mixed sex facilities could work; I definitely see overlap and potential conflict between human rights, womens rights and trans rights, in terms of my own services, support or accommodation needs, and I have no idea how it can be worked through.
I have already been called right wing, a bigot, a terf, a woman hater, a female supremacist and an experience weaponizer elsewhere for saying all of the above. I am open to being educated, but I do draw some lines...
My experiences as an l?g?b? (depending on however you want to currently and historical classify me) woman of trying to address male sexual violence targeting cis/nb women within activist LGBTQI froendly community venues with safe spaces has ended up repeatedly with trans women and nb men leading the groups, and their general safety being prioritised over bisexual/lesbian (depending on how they currently identify) cis and nb women's safety (and I assume trans mens too) - as in the latter never gets properly addressed, in my experience at least.
I used to be vocal about trans rights and abolishing same sex spaces, and consenting to this on behalf of all other women. I revised my take on this after my experiences above - I am unhappy at what what i formerly advocated for, and what other women are now consenting to on my behalf against my wishes.
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Additionall bits...
Im aware of someone who became pregnant after an assault ; they couldn't access specific services re counselling and support around their pregnancy resulting from rape, because the service they tried to access only supported women, girls and people who identified as women. Trans men were directed to the men/boys survivor services. I really cant make myself be ok with how services aren't really appropriate for some specific circumstances.
Obviously trans specific healthcare and support should be available to anyone that needs it. I think trans focussed support availability would have been far less damaging in that case than trying to navigate the current system. I worry that trans men are being failed in visibility, representation and support. I could be absolutely wrong about that though, not being a trans man myself.
I dont want to take support or rights away from anyone.
I dont want to have to renounce my current ones either though. The equality act (paraphrasing) states that people should be treated as and access services according to their gender, while also stating that single sex services etc can refuse access based solely on sex. It all seems messy and muddy.
Im aware of someone who became pregnant after an assault ; they couldn't access specific services re counselling and support around their pregnancy resulting from rape, because the service they tried to access only supported women, girls and people who identified as women. Trans men were directed to the men/boys survivor services. I really cant make myself be ok with how services aren't really appropriate for some specific circumstances.
Obviously trans specific healthcare and support should be available to anyone that needs it. I think trans focussed support availability would have been far less damaging in that case than trying to navigate the current system. I worry that trans men are being failed in visibility, representation and support. I could be absolutely wrong about that though, not being a trans man myself.
I dont want to take support or rights away from anyone.
I dont want to have to renounce my current ones either though. The equality act (paraphrasing) states that people should be treated as and access services according to their gender, while also stating that single sex services etc can refuse access based solely on sex. It all seems messy and muddy.
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I find it really sad how scaremongering about this debate has let to people not accessing services they need because they've been terrified that refuges and counseling centres are now all full of men pretending to be trans as a strategy to access vulnerable women.
Trans women make up a fraction of a percentage of those accessing such services. The truth is that many workers in that sector report never even knowingly having come across a trans woman in their work. Trans women would only be accepted into any services on a case by base basis after the same extensive risk assessments applied to anyone else, and there are no reported incidents of this causing problems in the UK despite it being policy for a long long time in many cases. And any decent service, in the case where a service user said it would make them very uncomfortable to be around anyone who wasn't born physically female, would find a way to try and accommodate that.
There are sadly many many cases of women not being able to access refuges and hostels due to lack of provision. Someone with substance misuse problems or mental health needs may be denied access to a lot of places. Someone without substance misuse problems or mental health issues may equally be denied access because the only bed spaces are in places which are inappropriate. There are and rightly so lots of refuge's and hostels that specialise in certain types of service users, whether that's mental health, LGBT projects, lone parents etc, including women only refuges which are not trans inclusive. There are still some traditional projects where everyone lives in one big house but many more are cluster flats or self contained units.
Maintaining this diversity of service provision is vital but the problem is there aren't enough of them. There is a nationwide funding crisis not just in the VAWG sector but also all the other sectors which are necessary to support it, namely primary care, social security and social housing. Surely we should be fighting for a fully funded VAWG sector that can provide all women, including trans women, a suitable place of safety immediately instead of accepting shoddily funded services that are ever vulnerable to political whims and cuts. Who benefits from the divisive rhetoric currently taking place?
And if you are scared of accessing services because of the onslaught of scaremongering about trans people in the press please, please talk to those services first before you reject them out of hand. No-one is going to call you transphobic or refuse to help. Despite it only coming to fairly recent public attention this is a matter VAWG projects have been dealing with for years - decades in some cases. Nothing significant has changed between now and ten or even twenty years ago.
I clearly haven't explained myself very well, and I also haven't discussed one of my experiences of of a trans woman who usually ends up in the reasons trans women are dangerous hyperbolic extreme examples.
I met her through a "friend" she'd shared a women's hostel with post prison release. I dont listen to scaremongering, I fucking have to live it and then be warned afterwards that I should have known.
I met her through a "friend" she'd shared a women's hostel with post prison release. I dont listen to scaremongering, I fucking have to live it and then be warned afterwards that I should have known.
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Two years ago when I was really isolated (yeah, I know, bit of a pattern) I met and made friends with a woman called Karen jones. She was a self described butch dyke, and equality act campaigner. I felt a bit weird around her in ways I couldn't put my finger on; she reminded me of a teenage boy in terms of misogyny and drinking culture, and sometimes I felt like a mouse in a room with a snake, from her body language. friends I introduced her to always asked if she was a man; I asked why the fuck they were talking about my friends genitals, and it didn't matter if she was, and for the record she'd told me she wasn't trans.
After a few months, I talked to her about childhood abuse and violence and the same throughout adulthood; she told me she had been in prison as a young woman for killing her boyfriend in self defense, and was a cis butch lesbian campaigning for equality. I cried at her about abusive men.
These powerful stories from two trans ex-offenders remind us why we need to support trans rights tod
"We're human, we have a heart. It beats the same as yours."
www.pinknews.co.uk
Contrast with
Karen Jones | Keep Prisons Single Sex
www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk
^ the main Google stuff about her links to the mail and Terfy sites, so this is as bad a link as any. Found it when I was trying to find out more about her inspirational equality act talks.
That was the summer I broke down and needed help. bumping into her in a women centred environment would fucking break me these days. She moved away last year and I don't ever want to see her again. She was the first person to get a GRC in prison, and the impact of that terrifies me.
After a few months, I talked to her about childhood abuse and violence and the same throughout adulthood; she told me she had been in prison as a young woman for killing her boyfriend in self defense, and was a cis butch lesbian campaigning for equality. I cried at her about abusive men.
These powerful stories from two trans ex-offenders remind us why we need to support trans rights tod
"We're human, we have a heart. It beats the same as yours."
Contrast with
Karen Jones | Keep Prisons Single Sex
^ the main Google stuff about her links to the mail and Terfy sites, so this is as bad a link as any. Found it when I was trying to find out more about her inspirational equality act talks.
That was the summer I broke down and needed help. bumping into her in a women centred environment would fucking break me these days. She moved away last year and I don't ever want to see her again. She was the first person to get a GRC in prison, and the impact of that terrifies me.
And re one bad apple, I could open a cider factory with the amount of bad apples I've met in different contexts over the years. "You were just extremely unlucky" and "that should never have happened" trips me up me every couple of years, I think its overdue this year tbh
^ relevant: the manager of forth valley rape crisis and her comments about working with vulnerable women.
The woman running that scares me shitless in terms of self awareness, and has tweeted that transphobes (so women like me, i suppose) are hateful, accompanied by comments about embodying kali and a pic of her beheading the haters.
No fucking way would I feel safe accessing her service.
The woman running that scares me shitless in terms of self awareness, and has tweeted that transphobes (so women like me, i suppose) are hateful, accompanied by comments about embodying kali and a pic of her beheading the haters.
No fucking way would I feel safe accessing her service.
There endeth my brain grenades and disproportionate fears. Talking and thinking about karen makes me shake. She was a safeguarding loophole nightmare; she told me she was part of the lgbt street angels group, who go round keeping people out at night in leeds safe .
I spoke to the group; they said the police advised them when she moved to the area, they kept an eye on her, and the only group she was allowed to join was the dining group. She had regular probation visits, and has to sign the sex offenders register for life. I believe she was also dodging round CRB checks (in her main jobs outside of the equality act campaining) because her GRC enabled that.
So so much lessons learnt about "a person is whatever they say they are" and "no debate".
Sorry smokedout - I will have a cuppa and reground and try and post a less screamy and more reasoned and actual response to your points.
I spoke to the group; they said the police advised them when she moved to the area, they kept an eye on her, and the only group she was allowed to join was the dining group. She had regular probation visits, and has to sign the sex offenders register for life. I believe she was also dodging round CRB checks (in her main jobs outside of the equality act campaining) because her GRC enabled that.
So so much lessons learnt about "a person is whatever they say they are" and "no debate".
Sorry smokedout - I will have a cuppa and reground and try and post a less screamy and more reasoned and actual response to your points.
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Tbh this is an example of what I mean about how things haven't changed. The person concerned has been working in the VAWG sector for 15 years, it's only in the last two years it suddenly became the most horrifying thing that's ever happened and means no women can access those services anymore. She has been subject to a torrent of both transphobic and racist abuse since she was 'exposed' despite there being no evidence her presence has been a problem for the many women she must have worked with over the past 15 years. This is no doubt what led to her tweet which is a symbol very specific to her religion (and Kali is always pictured holding a severed head). I'd rather religion was kept of of things like this altogether but I don't see it as monumentally different from someone posting an image of Christian iconography on their twitter, even if it wasn't culturally very well understood. And it must be horrible to have worked in a sector supporting survivors for so many years - which is very difficult work - and to be respected and successful in that sector and then suddenly have thousands of people pounce on you on social media accusing you of everything from misogyny to being a devious male intent on sexual abuse without any evidence or foundation.
And perhaps most importantly, the Forth Valley Rape Crisis is not even a woman only service. They run services for men as well. They could well have male staff - they say on their website they are women led, not women only. But it's only when they employ a trans women all this becomes such a problem. If people are happy with men accessing, and possibly working in VAWG services, but furious that a trans woman might, then that doesn't really look like reasonable concerns about male violence anymore. That looks like something else.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
The majority of refuge provision is still shared accommodation. Women and children will always have their own bedrooms, but share a bathroom or kitchen (or both) with the other residents. In my city, there are 14 refuges (and a host of dodgy supported accommodation claiming to be refuges but aren’t); over half are shared. I would like to see all refuge accommodation be self-contained, but there’s no money to convert / build new provision. Shared living puts off a lot of women, it’s not ideal.
In 40 years, we have worked with two trans service users to our knowledge. One was in one of our refuges, and nobody knew until she disclosed, the other disclosed during their stay that they believed they were a trans man and wanted support to explore that (which we duly did). We have had one non binary person who was male access us. We saw them for one appointment and then signposted to the local LGBT centre as they weren’t identifying or wanting to be a woman so we were not the appropriate service. They became very aggressive towards the staff member who saw them, but that’s more about them being a wanker than anything to do with their gender identity.
In the past eighteen months, we have been asked about our ‘stance’ on trans women at almost every professional training session / volunteer recruitment day. This has never happened before, so the current wider discussions are definitely influencing how professionals are thinking about support. Most have been fine with our ‘we take on a case by case basis’, one told me that we were bigoted and one left our volunteering programme because of what we said.
Just some random thoughts from someone working in VAWG.
In 40 years, we have worked with two trans service users to our knowledge. One was in one of our refuges, and nobody knew until she disclosed, the other disclosed during their stay that they believed they were a trans man and wanted support to explore that (which we duly did). We have had one non binary person who was male access us. We saw them for one appointment and then signposted to the local LGBT centre as they weren’t identifying or wanting to be a woman so we were not the appropriate service. They became very aggressive towards the staff member who saw them, but that’s more about them being a wanker than anything to do with their gender identity.
In the past eighteen months, we have been asked about our ‘stance’ on trans women at almost every professional training session / volunteer recruitment day. This has never happened before, so the current wider discussions are definitely influencing how professionals are thinking about support. Most have been fine with our ‘we take on a case by case basis’, one told me that we were bigoted and one left our volunteering programme because of what we said.
Just some random thoughts from someone working in VAWG.
Thank you - I've only caught the hyperbole, I didn't realise they also provided services to men.
Thanks as well PN.
And thank you for giving me the space to discuss/process my thoughts, misinformation and kneejerkry around this without being shouted at, for want of a better word. I'm really aware that I don't always have the full picture, and that I'm at risk of believing the hype by people with different intentions and experiences to myself in terms of "gender critical"/womens/trans/human rights overlap stuff.
The most appropriate place for all my questioning/processing/educating myself is probably one of the feminism threads tbf, but I'm a bit wary of bringing it up on those at the moment - I'm still getting used to posting on here again and working out where does and doesn't feel safe to vent, on a thread case by case basis...
Thanks as well PN.
And thank you for giving me the space to discuss/process my thoughts, misinformation and kneejerkry around this without being shouted at, for want of a better word. I'm really aware that I don't always have the full picture, and that I'm at risk of believing the hype by people with different intentions and experiences to myself in terms of "gender critical"/womens/trans/human rights overlap stuff.
The most appropriate place for all my questioning/processing/educating myself is probably one of the feminism threads tbf, but I'm a bit wary of bringing it up on those at the moment - I'm still getting used to posting on here again and working out where does and doesn't feel safe to vent, on a thread case by case basis...
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purenarcotic
Sorry this is off topic but was just something I'd been interested in, obviously no obligation to answer. Do you think this is because of the rules on Universal Credit and the supported housing exemption for housing benefits? I know it was something a lot of the people in the homelessness sector were concerned about - dodgy DSS B&Bs trying to pass themselves off as service providers to be able to continue claiming higher rents for example.
Sorry this is off topic but was just something I'd been interested in, obviously no obligation to answer. Do you think this is because of the rules on Universal Credit and the supported housing exemption for housing benefits? I know it was something a lot of the people in the homelessness sector were concerned about - dodgy DSS B&Bs trying to pass themselves off as service providers to be able to continue claiming higher rents for example.
Not exactly the same, but landlords registering as social housing providers so their friends can register with the council and be nominated directly for housing with them (and targeting vulnerable people / representing themselves as safe spaces as an aside) are actually extremely relevant to my current interests, funnily enough.
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