Support the French Rioters!
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montevideo
New Member
just to sum up the first 20 pages -
we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved.
the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.
Fair?
we have the radical liberal approach towards the riots which seems to be: we must be very careful who & what we are supporting because the behaviour of some individuals goes against our model of class action. We must wait & see till after the riots have finished & class anger been quelled before we decide what all that was about. We cannot fitfully show solidarity for the riots because real workers were not involved.
the anarchist approach seems to be: this is a genuine expression of class anger & who are we to judge or condemn the actions & activities of those who after years & years of state repression & hostility, social exclusion & deprived economic circumstances are finally taking things into their own hands. Despite the lack of focus or organisation our job is to support the collective struggle of those fighting, almost always despairingly, against their condition.
Fair?
montevideo
New Member
perhaps i should've said 'revolutionary approach' rather than 'anarchist approach' given a lot of leftists seem happy to support the rioters.
Against my better judgement, since every other point i've raised has been completely ignored 
...
You keep refusing to answer this monte - do you support "any and all" action taken by any working class person about anything, ever? If not you're a hypocrit.
Cockneyrebel:
As for this last bit of monte's thing again:
...This first bit is bullshit, nobody has said this. But that's to be expected from you.montevideo said:
This latter bit I'd mostly agree with. Except this: "who are we to judge or condemn the actions". All of us are entitled to interpret and understand anything in the way we wish. You can't throw aside any critical thought just cos actions are being carried out by working class people. Some working class people do counter-productive activities all the time, from organised things like lynchings in the US, or sectarian industrial action in N. Ireland, to individual things like murder or rape. "Who are we to judge" other workers' actions? We're other workers with a shared class interest in creating a communist world, that's who.
You keep refusing to answer this monte - do you support "any and all" action taken by any working class person about anything, ever? If not you're a hypocrit.
Cockneyrebel:
And you and monte are attacking me more than you are the French state! Come on this is a discussion amongst revolutionary socialists, we know we're gonna agree on the ballpark stuff, this is just specifics. I was in particular addressing the trot like tone of the initial article, offering "unconditional support"
As for this last bit of monte's thing again:
I think I'd probably disagree with way you interpret that. I don't think it's worth chucking everything aside to go do things "in support" of the rioters, just to carry on the general everyday work of trying to build workers' power (NB lower case) wherever we can.
revol68
what, fucking what?
good post iceman
You can ride my tail anytime.
and Monty don't you think that we are in a position to analysis whether certain actions will furthr marginalise those in the suburbs, or help create links with the wider class?
And what about the fact the rioting is predonimantly young and male, with little responsibilities, don't you think some of their actions will bring them into conflict with other working class people on their estates, even their own families?
Stop looking at revolutionary activity as macho stone throwing you fucking cock.
You can ride my tail anytime.
and Monty don't you think that we are in a position to analysis whether certain actions will furthr marginalise those in the suburbs, or help create links with the wider class?
And what about the fact the rioting is predonimantly young and male, with little responsibilities, don't you think some of their actions will bring them into conflict with other working class people on their estates, even their own families?
Stop looking at revolutionary activity as macho stone throwing you fucking cock.
cockneyrebel
New Member
As said, I have no problem with people pointing out what things they think are wrong, but it's the tone of some of this debate. It seems to almost fall into the language of the right-wing at some points i.e. emphasing that the people protesting/rioting are anti-social elements of society. I mean the main thrust of your initial post seemed to suggest we should be careful because a load of them are muggers and anti-social, rather than emphasise that this is an explosion of anger against poverty and racism. Whether most people posting on here are lefties or not this seems a wrong way of putting things to me.
It's also been subsequently pointed out that the example you gave about a bunch of students getting mugged actually happened in March.
It's also been subsequently pointed out that the example you gave about a bunch of students getting mugged actually happened in March.
cockneyrebel
New Member
For fucks sake, can we leave out the embarassing bollox.
revol68
what, fucking what?
cockneyrebel said:
just cos the example happened in March doens't negate the point of it, it was only to point out the problems in trying to unite wider struggles with those in the suburbs.
And if the tone me and others has taken has seemed abit negative, perhaps thats cause we were faced with anarcho mr blobbies who couldn't manage a critical thought between them.
montevideo
New Member
i'm surprised frantz fanon hasn't been brought up more often. Maybe it's not on their reading list.
montevideo
New Member
like a moth to a flame
My main point was that a more sensible approach (for anarchists anyway) would be like the libertarian approach to national liberation struggles (not "unconditional support" but measured support/solidarity with particular pro-working class elements within it). Would you agree the two things are comparable?cockneyrebel said:
Of course in addition a lot of people have a highly negative, media-skewed view of the riots. An anarchist groups telling people to "support" these things which have killed a pensioner, destroyed thousands of people's cars, etc. will add to people's view of anarchists as a bunch of dicks who just love rioting, chaos, violence and murder. Not to mention alienating the large proportion of the French working class who understand the rioters' problems, but don't think they're going the right way about solving them.
Sorry I never meant to imply that was recent. But montevideo's argument is basically who are we to say what's good and what's not? I say we're the only people who can say! Not everything violent that people from the banlieus do is good, or beneficial to the w/c.
montevideo
New Member
the reason fanon is interesting in this context, given his background & relationship to france, is he noted that violence was a necessary (although ugly, unavoidable) part of the decolonisation process. (He was, if you pardon the facile nature of the remark, the anti-gandhi).
Sympathisers to fanon's view would say that france's chickens are coming home to roost (if you'll pardon the cliche). How this fits into what is currently happening in paris & other parts of france is interesting, if only to highlight to the office bound class warriors & their tourettes inspired game boys, that burning a few cars is nothing in comparison to years of brutality, oppression, hatred & systematic violence on a daily basis to you, your family, your friends by state forces which you are powerless against.
Who then, beyond the self-appointed office boy & his tourettes vomiting pygmy friend, are we to judge what is & is not acceptable behaviour under those circumstances?
Sympathisers to fanon's view would say that france's chickens are coming home to roost (if you'll pardon the cliche). How this fits into what is currently happening in paris & other parts of france is interesting, if only to highlight to the office bound class warriors & their tourettes inspired game boys, that burning a few cars is nothing in comparison to years of brutality, oppression, hatred & systematic violence on a daily basis to you, your family, your friends by state forces which you are powerless against.
Who then, beyond the self-appointed office boy & his tourettes vomiting pygmy friend, are we to judge what is & is not acceptable behaviour under those circumstances?
cockneyrebel
New Member
You're the dumb fuck, because you missed my point. It just wasn't funny.
So a few people from the suburbs mugged some students in March, so that's something to judge the rioters by?! How do you know they are in any way connected? Or are you saying if someone in your area does something, you should be judged by it?
Trotskyists don't say you should give uncritical support to national liberation struggles by the way. In terms of comparing the two, I think for anarchists there would be big differences. The riots in France are spontaneous actions by working class youth, national liberation struggles that anarchists have problems with are usually organised and led by bourgeois nationalists, stalinists, religious leaders etc
The government is going on a massive offensive against the young people rioting against poverty and racism. Now while they may be carrying out some actions which backfire, I would have thought the main thrust of the left - socialist or anarchist - would be to defend the rioters from the oppression of the French state, while trying to engage with the people rioting. Now for the people on this thread that doesn't amount to anything much in reality, but as said before people comment on things they have no direct influence over all the time.
When people are saying they support the rioters, they are saying they support their fight against poverty and racism in a collective sense, not every individual act that this or that person might carry out. I mean for fucks sake have you got to make a list of every individual rioter and tick off whether they are acceptable or not.
Do you think rape is acceptable in a colonised country? Or presumably within the banlieus? Is it because these people are a mostly different race you think different standards should apply to them?montevideo said:
For about the 10th time will you answer this: do you support "any and all" action taken by any working class person about anything, ever? . As this seems to be the crux of your politics at the minute, why won't you answer it?
revol68
what, fucking what?
montevideo said:
and has anyone denied the violence of everyday life in the suburbs? Has anyone said they don't have an understanding of what would brutalise people. Fuck i've even acknowledged that the kids are attacking anything that seems remotely related to the state be that cops, buses or nurseries.
My concern is how much such forms of struggle are limited to young males and their inability to link up with other workers struggles.
See unlike your good self i've actually got a desire to see working class self empowerment in a really meaningful sense and not just take a hard on at people figthing the police and setting shit on fire.
But hey your a womble....
cockneyrebel
New Member
And what do you think would be the best way for the French left to engage with the rioters? On the basis of saying that some of the rioters should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done, or on the basis of saying we support your fight against poverty and racism and try and build some kind of dialogue/link from there?
cockneyrebel
New Member
Are the Kaiser Chiefs political geniuses?
cockneyrebel
New Member
Well reading some of the comments on here, I wasn't so sure.
It's like the riots in the US ghettos in the 1960s and 1980s, would the left stand by and decry the rioters for their lack of class perspective or try and engage with the spontaneous anger?
And in terms of earlier examples of low level crime in the suburbs, it's hardly a shock that some people are driven into crime considering the decades of unemployment and oppression. Now as said, the example you gave is totally irrelevant as it has no conection to the current riots. All those kind of comments do is play into the media who are trying to present the rioters as anti-social lumpen, mindless vandels.
revol68
what, fucking what?
cockneyrebel said:
well i'd imagine the latter, but my whole point has been that instead of just taking a hard on and delivering our unconditional and ineffective binary support we should instead be looking to analysis how the riots will relate to the wider working class (both in the estates and outside), the positive developments from the riots (a growing awareness of themselves as active subjects), how much such methods represent the weakness of the working class in such areas.
cockneyrebel
New Member
revo I don't think it is the job of the French left to arrogantly tell off the rioters for their lack of strategy or for some self-defeating actions (burning down schools in their own district). Instead the French left should engage with the rioters on the basis of supporting their fight against oppression and racism.
revol68
what, fucking what?
cockneyrebel said:
for the last fucking time i never argued that you fuckng stupid trot cunt!
Are we the fucking french left? All we can do is try and analysis these events as honestly and usefully as possible, to understand areas of commonality within the working class, but also to grasp the fracture points.
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