Suarez gets 8 match ban

[TruXta]

It's entirely normal in Latin American culture to use physical characteristics when referring to others.

As it is here. "See that black guy over there" is a perfectly legit sentence.

 

[ignatious]

But he's not playing in Latin America. He's playing in England.

I know, but he's Latin American. Are people expected to adapt immediately to another culture now? Is there no leeway for the ill-educated?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Terry's team mates must be shitting themselves, imagine him sitting around for 2 months with nothing to do

dan roan of bbc sports says CPS will announce Terry decision in next hour

 

[butchersapron]

I know, but he's Latin American. Are people expected to adapt immediately to another culture now? Is there no leeway for the ill-educated?

Of course there is - but from what i can tell you don't use negrito in a non-friendly situation such as this other than to try and wind up the other personand on the basis of skin colour. I reckon he knew there was a line there and tried to be too clever about it and now it's backfired. Using it in the normal friendly way, sure, point out the mistake and see if he learns from it, but i'm not at all convinced hat this is what happened here.

 

[strung out]

I know, but he's Latin American. Are people expected to adapt immediately to another culture now? Is there no leeway for the ill-educated?

he's only been playing in europe for 5 years, after all

 

[Plumdaff]

It is a very different phrase in a Latin American rather than a British context, and on the radio last night they mentioned that Evra had used a term for Latin American people (which wasn't disclosed, so could have been innocuous, or not) that might not - in the UK, where there has only been very small numbers of Latino immigrants - be viewed here as a racial slur but Suarez might have percieved very differently.

I'm not defending using these terms on a British football field, but I do think that there seems to be enough money thrown at players by clubs - a cultural awareness course for all players shouldn't be so difficult on top of punishment . It would be far less complicated should a British-born player be found guilty of using very straightforward racist abuse, but can't really think of any contemporary examples likely to come up soon.......

 

[ignatious]

Of course there is - but from what i can tell you don't use negrito in a non-friendly situation such as this other than to try and wind up the other personand on the basis of skin colour.

The pejorative line is a very murky one as far as I know. Equivalent english words like 'bruv' or 'bro' could be construed as racist in certain contexts while not being used pejoratively.

I reckon he knew there was a line there and tried to be too clever about it. Using it in the normal friendly way,sure, point out the mistake and see if he learns from it.

I suspect you're right, but given the evidence which has (so far) been made public it's a bit of a leap of faith I think.

 

[Lord Camomile]

An interesting article on the matter from Phil Vickery of the BBC.

Probably the most revered figure in the history of Uruguayan football is Obdulio Varela, captain of the side that won the World Cup in 1950. His nickname was "El Negro Jefe" - the black boss.

Among Suarez's team-mates these days is Maxi Pereira, who is known as "El Mono" - the monkey. It is a nickname which, apparently, is given and accepted with no offence meant or taken. It appears to be used in the same spirit that Alvaro Fernandez is called "El Flaco", which means skinny.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Like I said on the other thread before it moved over here, the questions I think you'd need to ask about the 'it's a regularly used inoffensive term' argument are - 'Does he use it regularly in training (he's been there nearly a year after all not a couple of weeks) and if so why the hell hasn't someone at Liverpool had a word and sorted him out?' and 'If he doesn't why has he suddenly decided to in the context of him trying to wind up an opponent?'

 

[editor]

An interesting article on the matter from Phil Vickery of the BBC.

What he calls his team mate is irrelevant. The question is why was he repeatedly using the term against an opponent.

 

[ignatious]

he's only been playing in europe for 5 years, after all

In Holland, mostly, where they speak Dutch as far I'm aware. Plenty of people have lived here for many years without integrating to the point of understanding relatively nuanced area of lingusitics.

 

[editor]

In Holland, mostly, where they speak Dutch as far I'm aware. Plenty of people have lived here for many years without integrating to the point of understanding relatively nuanced area of lingusitics.

Except he's not some poor immigrant trying to scrape by and bumbling his way around trying to understand local customs. He's an exceptionally privileged and wealthy person who would have been surrounded by all manner of advisors and agents. If he'd been going around using similar language, I'm pretty sure it would have been pointed out to him by now.

 

[Lord Camomile]

What he calls his team mate is irrelevant. The question is why was he repeatedly using the term against an opponent.

Is it really irrelevant? We can speculate and argue on just how 'integrated' and 'culturally aware' he should be, but surely if he's used to a certain term not causing offence then that should be taken into account, in the interests of context?

 

[ignatious]

If he'd been going around using similar language, I'm pretty sure it would have been pointed out to him by now.

Perhaps others haven't taken offence?

 

[butchersapron]

Is it really irrelevant? We can speculate and argue on just how 'integrated' and 'culturally aware' he should be, but surely if he's used to a certain term not causing offence then that should be taken into account, in the interests of context?

Context is the way in which it was used, in a confrontational situation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps others haven't taken offence?

perhaps others haven't done anything about the offence they've felt.

 

[ignatious]

perhaps others haven't done anything about the offence they've felt.

Perhaps not. So how would he know it's offensive?

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps others haven't taken offence?

Perhaps he didn't use it aggressively in a confrontational situation?

 

[gabi]

Nah, Fergie only stands by them if they shag granny hookers, get into drunken brawls, roast drunk young girls, organise orgies, deliberately skip drugs tests and (allegedly) snort coke in nightclubs...

I'm all in favour of all of the above, perhaps this is why I support United

Not in favour of flagrant racism however, excused on the very very dodgy basis that in some backward part of the world these terms are acceptable. And yes, they are acceptable, across South America. But Suarez is not playing in South America. I hope fans down there have seen the sentence handed down to one of their favourite sons and taken note.

Suarez did a magazine interview afterwards where he admitted to this so I've no idea why LFC would be appealing.

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps not. So how would he know it's offensive?

By a) his experience and b) it being used normally - as it appears he himself claims - to be a friendly term. He has undermined his own case - as you are also doing now - by using in in a confrontational situation. You and he highlight the distance between 'normal use' and this specific use.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Not in favour of flagrant racism however, excused on the very very dodgy basis that in some backward part of the world these terms are acceptable. And yes, they are acceptable, across South America.

So, you're against racism, but are quite happy to declare South America a 'backward part of the world'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps not. So how would he know it's offensive?

if i called you a nigger i think we both know that would be offensive. in fact, if i made any reference to your race under most circumstances you might reasonably take offence. if i refer to the colour of a footballer on an opposing team be that player ian wright or tony adams i would fairly expect them to take umbrage.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

What he calls his team mate is irrelevant. The question is why was he repeatedly using the term against an opponent.

i must admit, i think the conclusion to Vickery's piece is actually of far more interest.

"The Round against Racism" was nothing of the sort. In reality, cynically and opportunistically, it was the "Round against Blatter".
The English FA has now left itself open to the same accusation of cynicism. What Suarez is alleged to have done is wrong. To draw attention to the colour of someone's skin in a manner that could be construed as pejorative is not acceptable in our reality.
There is a clear case for punishment as part of a process of education. But the eight-game ban would seem to go much further.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm all in favour of all of the above, perhaps this is why I support United

Not in favour of flagrant racism however, excused on the very very dodgy basis that in some backward part of the world these terms are acceptable...

There's just no helping some people is there?

 

[ignatious]

Perhaps he didn't use it aggressively in a confrontational situation?

Perhaps he didn't with Evra either.

 

[ignatious]

@ Gabi:
You don't follow Hernandez on Twitter, then?

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps he didn't with Evra either.

Are you suggesting he didn't use the term at all or he used it in the normal affectionate way?

 

[butchersapron]

You don't follow Hernandez on Twitter, then?

Why the fuck would i follow a hernadez on twitter?

 

[ignatious]

Why the fuck would i follow a hernadez on twitter?

Edited, quoted wrong post.

 

[gabi]

@ Gabi:
You don't follow Hernandez on Twitter, then?

No