Some questions to the "atheists/non-believers"

[Aldebaran]

Err...the "utterly obvious falsehood" to which I refer is the only thing I have spoken about so far: namely that Mohammed (or indeed any entity, fictional or real) sliced the moon in two, and then put it back together again (conspicuously failing to leave any stress fracture marks indicating this wondrous feat that could be picked up with any of our instruments).

Yes, it sounds silly, I agree. (I have some suspicions he is a Shia Muslim but I can be wrong.) To get some idea where such things come from (= how it is possible some people can come up with such such stories) you must place it in context of the relationship a Muslim has with the Prophet of Islam.

salaam.

 

[kropotkin]

I am fully aware of how a grown man, at a fairly good british university, is able to hold within his head mutually conflicting pieces of information.

The same guy told me that there were no contradictions within the Qu'ran, and when I sent him a few he failed to reply to my email. This subconscious demarkation of areas of knowledge is very interesting: these rules apply here, and these rules apply here. Here I will be a rational, intelligent human being, and here I will swallow completely unbelieveable obscurantist lies promulgated as a coherant narrative in a desert culture thousands of years ago, in order to gain social currency within my family and community.

 

[Fruitloop]

Someone like Veblen would be profoundly unsurprised by that state of affairs.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

I looked at some of the exchanges between "atheists/non-believers" and people who believe in the existence of God (I made a few posts in such threads too).

A few things look very strange to me when reading such threads.
1. The "non-believers" seem to post in a very defensive mindset.
2. If not defensive this group often posts denigrating remarks about the "believers" (even up to the point of questioning their mental capacities or mental health).
3. If a "believer" declares to have no problem whatsoever with the results of scientific research, "non-believers" don't seem to have the ability to place this within the frame of their own ideas about "believers". They still proclaim the "believer" to be mentally incapable.

I would like to know/get an understanding of the causes behind this.

salaam.
Aldebaran.
non-retarded believer

There aren't any questions in this post.

 

[Termite Man]

1. The "non-believers" seem to post in a very defensive mindset.
2. If not defensive this group often posts denigrating remarks about the "believers" (even up to the point of questioning their mental capacities or mental health).
3. If a "believer" declares to have no problem whatsoever with the results of scientific research, "non-believers" don't seem to have the ability to place this within the frame of their own ideas about "believers". They still proclaim the "believer" to be mentally incapable.

1) If you have some believers tell you that because you don't share their belief you will be punished eternally and that the way you live your is somehow "wrong" then I think I have every right to be defensive . Not all "believers" are judgemental but unfortunatly people tend to judge a majority on the actions of a minority

2) I don't think I have ever said I think people who "believe" are mentally retarded , I will judge individual cases as I see fit though , because belief can have poitive effects on peoples lives which IMO is a good thing .

3) Can't answer this because it's incredible vague as to what scientific research you mean and as to what you mean by "has no problem" !

 

[onemonkey]

it's a bit of a myth that Jesus was a bearded hippie who loves everyone..

"JOHN
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"ACTS
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

"MATTHEW
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


LOTS more examples here

 

[Nickster]

Wıth respect, Fruıtloop, the fact that would even ask thıs questıon suggests that you have not been payıng suffıcıent attentıon to my teachıngs.

Your "teachings" [rolls around laughing]

Does u75 have its own "prophet of God" now?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

you have not been payıng suffıcıent attentıon to my teachıngs.

Oh shit that's the best!!!

You are suck a dick.

 

[Aldebaran]

The same guy told me that there were no contradictions within the Qu'ran, and when I sent him a few he failed to reply to my email.

I said already he obviously has not much of a clue about Islam to begin with. If you want to discuss this please make a thread for it. (Explaining Al Qur'an - espeically in this language - is not something I want to spend my time on if it is bound to get buried in a non-related thread.)

This subconscious demarkation of areas of knowledge is very interesting: these rules apply here, and these rules apply here. Here I will be a rational, intelligent human being, and here I will swallow completely unbelieveable obscurantist lies promulgated as a coherant narrative in a desert culture thousands of years ago, in order to gain social currency within my family and community.

It has less to do with the subconsious then with social indoctrination sustained by social pressure. The story you came up with has no such relevance at all, so I really doubt it that the man you speak of believes it "to gain social currency withing family and community". Maybe within his little personal circle there are some others who spread this and some who actually believe it but my guess on that is as good as yours.

By the way: I am what you call a direct descendant of a "desert culture of thousands years ago" and living it. In addition Islam and its history is my first academic studyfield. The story you came up with has no relation to that = Inventions about historical figures are of all times.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

1) If you have some believers tell you that because you don't share their belief you will be punished eternally and that the way you live your is somehow "wrong" then I think I have every right to be defensive .

You have your ideas, they have theirs in which you don't believe. Why can theirs even bother you, let alone to a point where it influences your reaction?

Can't answer this because it's incredible vague as to what scientific research you mean and as to what you mean by "has no problem" !

I mean every possible research done in every possible academic field. And no problem means "no problem" to me... but my knowledge of this language is fairly limited

salaam.

 

[scathed]

I am an atheist. There is no god/dog and most definitely there is no spoon.

If I call someone a stinking little man, that little smelly man will try and defend himself. It may not be his belief that he smells or that he is small, but for the sake of dignity or pride that little smelly man will tell you how he sees it.

Human evolution has transitions, much like how from childhood we have our transitions.
As children, we are told things by our parents in order to control us, "bad boy, sit in the corner!" .. "eat your food, or no television!"... "if you don't behave santa wont bring you presents".
In evolution, since times of yonder, there have been wiser people tell the simpler peons that there is a god, respect and obey and life will lead to prosperity... and eternal life in the heavens. Otherwise, live in the gloomy misery that is hell. As we evolved and progressed and began to learn faster, and the masses became wiser, the realization that the whole purpose of a god is merely a mechanism to control people through fear. Laws replace religion and so does money. We are essentially thick idiots that need to be controlled like cattle. If you decide you find the reality hard to grasp and reject it, you're merely proving how you're subscribed to a dogma that proves your lack of metal evolution.
I don't have a problem walking around in a world of simple peons. I do have a problem walking in a world of simple peons whom profess to punish me for being more evolved than they are, alleging that I am punishable by their dogmatic beliefs.

Worship the sun, worship the wallpapper... worship football stars and macdonalds, worship b&q's 20% sale on black&decker goods... we're all simple peons trying to get by trying to ignore what we're being told to do.

I hope that clarifies my opinion, don't quote me, I wont defend myself.

 

[Aldebaran]

So you mean you can't possibly defend anything you posted?
From a certain point of view I find that interesting, but on the other hand it is of no interest in a thread aimed at "having a discussion on a message board".


salaam.

 

[scathed]

I didn't say that you could not discuss it. Merely that it wasn't worth defending. My opinion whether or not it makes any sense to you makes no difference to me. It works for me and I'm happy. You asked for us to shed light on how we see things.

The difference between you thinking that we regard you as having a mental problem versus us viewing that your cerebral complex is not well established enough to establish independance is perceptional. Much like, an addict of a drug who sees that they only "use" the drug, whilst someone else views that the person is too weak to let go.

 

[Aldebaran]

scathed, my perception of your posts in this thread is that for some mysterious reason you believe you are more capable of using your brain then I am, or that you have a more developped brain then I do or some other capability which makes your brain functions superior to mine.

I find that no less then intriguing, especially since you seem to be so convinced. Any normal person would ask you to come up with scientific proof. I am not normal and I am satisfied enough with reading that whatever you believe makes you happy.

salaam.

 

[scathed]

I'm just being derrogatory against non-atheists as I have been treated myself for thinking the way that I do. I think it is only fair banter to see how much guts you have to stand with your enlightened mind (if you have one at all ). I do however believe that to be rational and fair minded can only go so far within the confinds of religious doctrines. Rationality within religion comes unstuck at several stages in my point of view.

I do not think I am more capable in the sense of intellectual capacity in comparison to someone who has faith. However, I do think I'm my margins are less likely to bind my decisions in life with what I believe or not believe; in that respect I am more capable.

Not to be a intellectual bigot or a complete spell checker wanker but the difference between the words then and than are hugely different.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think it is only fair banter to see how much guts you have to stand with your enlightened mind (if you have one at all ).

Maybe I am finally entering the calming stage of demention or heading in full speed towards complete and joyfull lunaticism: I don't remember to have said that my mind is enlightened.

I do however believe that to be rational and fair minded can only go so far within the confinds of religious doctrines.

Do you always believe everything your mind comes up with at a given moment? Looks very much like self-limiting self-indoctrination to me.

Rationality within religion comes unstuck at several stages in my point of view.

An invalid reasoning because of the simple fact that to begin with you have no clue about religion if you don't have one. (You surely have no clue about mine, nor about me.) Next you talk about "religion" as if that is a worldwide umbrella covering every single religion and every single follower thereof on this globe. Seems to me your point of view works in stages that fail to connect with simple reality.

I do not think I am more capable in the sense of intellectual capacity in comparison to someone who has faith. However, I do think I'm my margins are less likely to bind my decisions in life with what I believe or not believe; in that respect I am more capable.

You do have a belief: your belief is that there is no God. That puts its own specific limits on your reasoning, directs, influences and tends to rule your thoughts and actions, hence your life.
While reading your comments I can't escape the impression that what you take for "being capable" is no less then making yourself incapable to step outside the limits of your self-imposed frame of reasoning.

Not to be a intellectual bigot or a complete spell checker wanker but the difference between the words then and than are hugely different.

Not to be an intellectual bigot, but my dyslexic brain can't detect any mixing up of those two words in my texts.
It does detect some weird syntax your sentences in the former quote and the quote above that one.
Surely must be because I never had one class in this language while in addition Dyslex is playing one of his games to confuse my reading skills... (Correct me if I am wrong. I must live wiht never-ending fearfull doubts about what I read or wrote... One day I surely end up in a madhouse. Please send parcels with fluffy toys.)

salaam.

 

[scathed]

I'm not commenting on any of the above, as I do not wish to be quoted.

Except for the fact that I too have dyslexia too which I find is quite crippling. However, I make the effort to know the difference between the meaning of words. I also generally proof read my posts for mistakes.

 

[inflatable jesus]

You have your ideas, they have theirs in which you don't believe. Why can theirs even bother you, let alone to a point where it influences your reaction?

I just wanted to make a quick comment on this argument.

It's rubbish.

You could just as easily turn that around and ask why you are bothered by anyone else's belief that religious people are mentally challenged. It is just an opinion after all.

Or to labour the point, if I were to mention in passing that I hate all arabs, particularly muslim ones. You wouldn't think - Well that's just his opinion. Why would that bother me? Any sensible person would think that I was a racist idiot and may even feel inclined to challenge me on it.

There's nothing at all wrong about feeling offended by somebody else's opinion when their opinion happens to be about you. Hence a religious person's opinion that I am sinful and have many things to be ashamed of really is quite offensive to me and there's no reason why I shouldn't challenge such a belief if the fancy takes me.

Oh fuck I lied, that wasn't a quick comment at all.

 

[HST]

I am an atheist, and have been for many years.

I do not believe in your holy books, your gods, your prophets, your saints, your martyrs, your heavens or your hells.

I see no reasons why I should.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's rubbish. You could just as easily turn that around and ask why you are bothered by anyone else's belief that religious people are mentally challenged. It is just an opinion after all.

It isn't "rubbish" and did I say anywhere that I am bothered by it? I only want to find out why they react as they do.

Or to labour the point, if I were to mention in passing that I hate all arabs, particularly muslim ones. You wouldn't think - Well that's just his opinion.

Yes, I would.

Why would that bother me? Any sensible person would think that I was a racist idiot and may even feel inclined to challenge me on it.

Possible, but in my experience a racist isn't bothered by that. On the contrary, they seem to enjoy such reactions.

There's nothing at all wrong about feeling offended by somebody else's opinion when their opinion happens to be about you.

I don't say it is "wrong".
I asked myself why anyone can possibly be bothered at all when someone declares him a "sinner" or "on the way to hell" when he doesn't even believe any such things exist.
You could tell me endlessly that I am doomed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Pink Unicorn and I would find that very funny. You find a belief in God a comparable nonsense... why don't you react the same?

Hence a religious person's opinion that I am sinful and have many things to be ashamed of really is quite offensive to me and there's no reason why I shouldn't challenge such a belief if the fancy takes me.

See above. You don't believe in "sin" and you don't believe in anything such a person might ever say about or to you. Yet for some reason you still find that offensive? How can you explain that rationally?

I had some months ago a rather curious encounter with a US Christian who even followed me (even waited outside my hotel the next day) only to tell me that I was doomed, my parents were in hell, my children were waited for by the devil etc.. etc... until the moment I agreed to let him "pray for me" that I would "accept Jesus".
I found that not only amazing, but also very amusing and I felt some pitty for him too, since he said he would go on "praying" until he "got a sign" that I was "saved".
I suppose you would be very "insulted" and call him a retard? Why? You don't even believe in God.

salaam.

 

[nopassaran]

I see no reasons why I should.[/QUOTE]

But I think the important issue here is not why you don't, but rather why other people feel the need to......

All things considered if people wish to embrace some sense of religiousity then fair enough....the problem arises when this manifests itself in oppressive and chauvinistic practices. At the end of the day religion is a social construct and therefore open to change and interpretation through space and time, which is evident in the way that the practices of most organised religions have changed over time and across continents.

People require religion to make sense of the world and the issues that present themselves to people as they go about their daily lives but in many respects it differs very little to the belief that people have in consumerism - the vast majority of people are unable to engage in any principled and self critical dialogue with themselves and organised religion unfortunately plays a part in this.

can i go now.....?

 

[inflatable jesus]

Aldebran

If what you've posted is true you're a better man that I am. However, I suspect that you're not being entirely honest. I don't believe that there's no opinion out there that somebody could hold that you wouldn't be offended by. I could run through some possibilties for you but that just seems rude.

It isn't "rubbish" and did I say anywhere that I am bothered by it? I only want to find out why they react as they do.

I think that you believe people on urban75 shouldn't insinuate that religious people are mentally ill. So, I don't think this is entirely true.

Possible, but in my experience a racist isn't bothered by that. On the contrary, they seem to enjoy such reactions.

At the risk of wandering off topic, I think there are two seperate racist acts that are being confused. I would say that a comment like 'I hate all arabs, especially muslim ones' one be more likely to be made (if made at all) to other non-arab people with the intention of seeking approval and support. I find racists spend a great deal of time justifying their racism but only to people they think may be on their side.

I find that when a racist actually adresses a person of the race he holds a negative opinion about, he either holds his toungue or says offensive things with the intention of establishing some kind of dominance over the said person. I don't think 'Why don't you fuck off back to your own country?' is a genuine attempt to engage a person in conversation. It's about gaining the power in that situation.

Now if you can be in that situation where a racist idiot is telling you that he wants you to get out of his country because your race makes you dirty, and think 'well, that's just his opinion', then you may in fact be Jesus. Everyone else on the plannet would find that degrading and would want to show the fucker that he doesn't have any power over you.

'You find a belief in God a comparable nonsense... why don't you react the same?'

I do for the most part. I find religious people to be hilarious. Generally the need to offend the religious only strikes me if I encounter something really distasteful. Like the Vatican telling people in Africa not to use condoms for example. I read that and think 'why are these eunichs in silly hats being allowed to fuck up the lives of millions of people?'. Or perhaps a preist telling my friend's mother that the reason he was born with deformities may have been because of she had acted sinfully. I would most likely have told that guy to go fondle a choirboy if I had met him.

See above. You don't believe in "sin" and you don't believe in anything such a person might ever say about or to you. Yet for some reason you still find that offensive? How can you explain that rationally?

When somebody is calling you a cunt for to your face, it's not important that you think their opinion is wrong. For example when a couple of guys decide to prelude kicking my head in by calling me a dirty fenian bastard. It doesn't matter that I don't think that my parent's religion and my ethnic background makes me 'dirty' or inferior to them. The fact that they do and they've decided it's okay to say such a thing in front of me is degrading. That's the point of it.

So when a religious person says that I am inferior to him in some way because I don't subscribe to his religious beliefs, it doesn't matter that I think he's wrong. It just bothers me that he doesn't know better than to keep such an offensive opinion to himself. So I would see that there's a need to educate him on that point.

I had some months ago a rather curious encounter ....
I suppose you would be very "insulted" and call him a retard? Why? You don't even believe in God.

It depends on how forceful he was being. I'd probably laugh it off at first, if he persisted I would tell him to fuck off and that he was too old to believe in fairies.

I wouldn't use the term 'retard', that would be bad mannered.

 

[nopassaran]

i think you'll find that racists justify their racism by arguing that they're not racist to people who don't see themselves as racists but actually are.... this has definitely played a big part in successes of the bnp

 

[Aldebaran]

If what you've posted is true you're a better man that I am.

I can't possibly judge that.

However, I suspect that you're not being entirely honest.

Why would I try to lie myself? (Now I'm intrigued by the thought about how that would go...)

I don't believe that there's no opinion out there that somebody could hold that you wouldn't be offended by.

There is none, be it that in some cases you must separate emotional reaction from the rational. I can be emotionally touched by some things said to me and hence feel pain or get angry because of it. That doesn't mean people can't have their opinions and express them. A completely separate issue.

I could run through some possibilties for you but that just seems rude.

Interesting idea for an experiment but I fear that if we would make a thread for that purpose it would easily lead to some people jumping in it to make abuse of the occasion. Nevertheless... If the moderators of this forum have no objection we could try it.

I think that you believe people on urban75 shouldn't insinuate that religious people are mentally ill.

No, I don't. They can insinuate all they want (which I find a rather silly thing to waste their time with, but their time is not mine). I only asked for the reasons.
If you for example now call me mentally ill then I have reason for being amused = you would enlighten my day a bit which I presume would not be your goal

So, I don't think this is entirely true.

You may think what you want.

I find racists spend a great deal of time justifying their racism but only to people they think may be on their side.....

That is the sociological side of it (to fit in with a subculture) and in my view it is not about dominance over the other. Behaviour that aims at looking down on others and making it known that you look down on them is the most applied method to cover up a low self-esteem and insecurity (while being the most visible sign of it.)

I never met in person any racist or anyone who talked like that to me. Would I ever have that occasion such things would make me laugh.

(I'm not Jesus)

I find religious people to be hilarious.

Why?

Like the Vatican telling people in Africa not to use condoms for example. I read that and think 'why are these eunichs in silly hats being allowed to fuck up the lives of millions of people?'.

mmmm... You really don't need to be an atheist to find that disgusting up to the point that you find it criminal (as in: instigation to, agreement and support of deliberate torture and murder.)

Or perhaps a preist telling my friend's mother that the reason he was born with deformities may have been because of she had acted sinfully. I would most likely have told that guy to go fondle a choirboy if I had met him.

I can think of me doing some other things:
1. Report him to his Bishop.
2. Tell him to go back to seminary to learn how to become a priest.
3. Grab him by his white collar, drag him to the house of your friend's mother and make him apologise. On his knies, begging God for forgiveness.
(There are some other possibilities I could add to this)

For example when a couple of guys decide to prelude kicking my head in by calling me a dirty fenian bastard.

Now you bring in physical violence. I wasn't talking about that.

It doesn't matter that I don't think that my parent's religion and my ethnic background makes me 'dirty' or inferior to them. The fact that they do and they've decided it's okay to say such a thing in front of me is degrading. That's the point of it.

No. The point is that you fall in that trap, set up especially to let you fall into it because if the other party can't get to you he feels inferior and insecure. That you cooperate with that is not their doing but yours.

So when a religious person says that I am inferior to him in some way because I don't subscribe to his religious beliefs, it doesn't matter that I think he's wrong. It just bothers me that he doesn't know better than to keep such an offensive opinion to himself. So I would see that there's a need to educate him on that point.

You can easily educate everyone without joining the Club of the Offensive. If you join the club you make yourself inferior to yourself. Again not their doing but yours.

salaam.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why would I try to lie myself? (Now I'm intrigued by the thought about how that would go...)

People lie to themselves all the time.

"I'll be successful one day"

"My spouse isn't cheating"

"Everything will be ok"

"I can live with that"

etc

 

[inflatable jesus]

Aldebaran

I'm a little intrigued by your answers and given that your subsequent posts have been consistent with your original point (that I quoted), I'm happy to withdraw my accusation that it was rubbish.

I can be emotionally touched by some things said to me and hence feel pain or get angry because of it. That doesn't mean people can't have their opinions and express them. A completely separate issue.

I agree that people can have whatever opinions they like. But the reason they can believe whatever they like because a belief does not affect anyone but them. When one expresses a belief in a public manner it necessarily involves other people though, so it stops being personal property and starts being open for debate and criticism.

When people propose suggest action on the basis of belief, it's doubly important that their beliefs are sctrutinised and if appropriate, criticised. The fact that it's a religious belief shouldn't entitle it to any special protection.

I find religious people to be hilarious. - Why?

Largely because the whole thing is just daft. The central premise of Abrahamic monotheism is that the world was created and everything in it is decided by a supernatural being who only appears to mankind in ways that can't be proved and sound suspiciously like they've just been made up various guys with plenty of reasons for just making this kind of thing up.
He's an all powerful being who doesn't want you to eat pork or shrimp and seems to spend his time worrying that he's not being worshipped enough and obsessing over the sexual behavior of the people he created.
Then there are the guys in the orange togas, the blue elephant guy that drinks milk, I see no evidence that sanity plays any part in the Sikh religion....
The whole thing is funny in a really tragic way.

No. The point is that you fall in that trap, set up especially to let you fall into it because if the other party can't get to you he feels inferior and insecure. That you cooperate with that is not their doing but yours.

It's true. Usually it works best when you already feel insecure about something. History gives a lot of us things to feel insecure about. Humans have been very unkind to each other over the past few thousand years, so it's not always easy to let go.

You can easily educate everyone without joining the Club of the Offensive. If you join the club you make yourself inferior to yourself. Again not their doing but yours.

I think there's a time to be the bigger man. I think there's also a time to challenge opinions and behavior.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Largely because the whole thing is just daft. The central premise of Abrahamic monotheism is that the world was created and everything in it is decided by a supernatural being who only appears to mankind in ways that can't be proved and sound suspiciously like they've just been made up various guys with plenty of reasons for just making this kind of thing up.
He's an all powerful being who doesn't want you to eat pork or shrimp and seems to spend his time worrying that he's not being worshipped enough and obsessing over the sexual behavior of the people he created.
Then there are the guys in the orange togas, the blue elephant guy that drinks milk, I see no evidence that sanity plays any part in the Sikh religion....
The whole thing is funny in a really tragic way.

I'm not a believer, but when you get right down to it, I don't have a really good explanation for the universe, existence etc. I can't really fault people who want to believe that Jehovah or whomever waved a magic wand.

We're only alive for seventy or eighty years each. It's not enough time to figure everything out. At least the religious have some comfort in thinking they have answers to these questions. I can't put them down for wanting answers.

 

[inflatable jesus]

Yeah, that's all fine by me.

I'd prefer that they look upon their views as hazarding a guess at what's going on rather than confidently believing they are in possesion of the literal word of God, but I guess that's a big ask.

 

[OriginalSinner]

Yeah, that's all fine by me.

I'd prefer that they look upon their views as hazarding a guess at what's going on rather than confidently believing they are in possesion of the literal word of God, but I guess that's a big ask.

Do you think it's relevant to mention that confidence is a huge part of any success in life?

Maybe the point isn't really the religion... but the confidence?

 

[snorbury]

Do you think it's relevant to mention that confidence is a huge part of any success in life?

Maybe the point isn't really the religion... but the confidence?

is confidence a strength??????????