"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth

[frogwoman]

if doctors are prescribing drugs because the child isn't 'tall enough' and they want to make them taller before the puberty starts then honestly, it is no wonder fucked up shit is going to happen. being prescribed these drugs over a period of twelve months and being closely monitored as seems to happen in the UK with regular appointments seems completely different to some quack just handing stuff out like sweets. when i think of the car crash that is the US healthcare system, this is the least of their worries to

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

in the article you linked it discussed people who had been given lupron to make them taller! maybe i'm naive but america's healthcare system is so screwed up, i honestly think this is the least of their worries and it seems to be a total shit show in so many different ways. maybe i'm wrong, but i have trouble imagining that the same thing would happen here.

I think, one of the side effects is that it makes them taller but was used to treat precocious puberty. Lupton is used for all sorts of mental reasons.

America's system is BATSHIT though so I'm sure some were being prescribed it just to make them taller.


As an aside (generally, not to you frog woman) I just wanted to say, that this whole thing was started of with sport and the fact that it won't matter because people will be transitioning kids earlier so they (transgender people) will be able to compete on the team of the opposite sex.

Well if you agree with the Tavistock method, kids will already have gone through some amount of puberty, so there are going to be some sex based differences.

The only way you can get rid of secondary sex characteristics is by using puberty blockers early which would be advocating for a different policy.

I don't think there's an easy answer.

Edited for clarity.

 

[frogwoman]

theres SHIT LOADS of people who do FUCK ALL medically because of lots of different reasons and all of this shit is just parroted basic crap the media are questionably spouting - I highly doubt that this group of people will be blind to their differences and be involved in competitive sport.

I bet you all think that if someones not doing hormones or surgery then theres no way they can be trans or have an opinion of themselves which doesnt fit in your generically bland box.

that website seems to indicate that people definitely aren't being pushed into medical interventions in the uk, if anything the opposite.

 

[pengaleng]

well then some people have some explaining to do about their shitty opinions from mumsnet dont they.

 

[frogwoman]

yeah but they won't be transitioning older after years of training as a man which is what the controversy was supposed to be about. so even though there may be some sex based differences it won't be as significant as some of the stories now, if at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hannah Mouncey competed in men’s handball and is now playing in the women’s Aussie rules football team. It’s a contact sport. Mouncey is 6 ft 3 and weighs 100 kilos. Depleted testosterone has had little impact on her size.

i recently saw a young woman who was about a foot taller than me, so 6' 10" - 7'. from the way you're talking you'd be less than happy to see her in a sports team.

 

[pengaleng]

I hope supermodels dont dare play sport.

I dont think team sports really counts. you cant win unless everyone agrees to play.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

yeah but they won't be transitioning older after years of training as a man which is what the controversy was supposed to be about. so even though there may be some sex based differences it won't be as significant as some of the stories now, if at all.

Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to tell, people transition medically for all sorts of reasons at all sorts of different ages. Then you end up with a transgender hierarchcy "you can compete cuz you transitioned early enough, but you can't cuz you went through too much puberty".

So I dunno. It's just so messy, isn't it it?

 

[pengaleng]

I like how this convo is slyly implying that cis women above a certain hieght/weight shouldnt play sport because they are deemed manly. nice touch.

 

[killer b]

well then some people have some explaining to do about their shitty opinions from mumsnet dont they.

I wonder why the topic of younger transitioning ended up being discussed, and how we got the impression there was a move towards more widespread use of blockers for earlier transition.

oh.

some people on here havent got the memo that a lot of people who are gonna be sporting heroes have a very short career usually when they are young and thus so the trans people who will be competing in like the olympics are gonna start young and transition young too.

 

[pengaleng]

I wonder why the topic of younger transitioning ended up being discussed, and how we got the impression there was a move towards more widespread use of blockers for earlier transition.

oh.

yeah, you pwned me there, my fault again, well done. 4/10

I was trying to make people think about the shit they are talking about implicating the next generation of trans adults who are todays children, didnt expect it'd come off as an in to peddle some crap they read somewhere.

but whatever, I'm obviously the problem here as always, but you gotta think more when a total cunt thinks you are a cunt isnt it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

i recently saw a young woman who was about a foot taller than me, so 6' 10" - 7'. from the way you're talking you'd be less than happy to see her in a sports team.

I'm reminded about the vitriol aimed at Serena Williams. An exceptional athlete, the best tennis player of a generation, entirely unrivalled. Regularly compared in eyebrow-raising terms to Sharapova. Her body is constantly being policed.

I'm thinking about the butch cis women who are being accosted under suspicion of being trans for 'not looking female.'

I wonder what metric crapton of shit Fatima Whitbread would be facing were she competing today.

 

[frogwoman]

Caster Semanya as well.

 

[pengaleng]

yes I have been thinking of serena williams too and how this all ties in with not just anti male characteristics but anti blackness and also fatima whitbread too

 

[killer b]

yeah, you pwned me there, my fault again, well done. 4/10

I was trying to make people think about the shit they are talking about implicating the next generation of trans adults who are todays children, didnt expect it'd come off as an in to peddle some crap they read somewhere.

but whatever, I'm obviously the problem here as always, but you gotta think more when a total cunt thinks you are a cunt isnt it.

I don't think you're a cunt - but I think if you raise the idea that it'll be pretty widespread that the next generation of trans people won't go through puberty (presumably through drugs), then you can expect some sort of discussion of that idea.

 

[pengaleng]

I'm thinking about the butch cis women who are being accosted under suspicion of being trans for 'not looking female.'

lol that terf who was policed by a man tho

 

[Vintage Paw]

'Gender critical' feminists sure are fond of upholding a very strict binary replete with all of its behavioural and presentation gatekeeping and stereotypes.

 

[bimble]

'Gender critical' feminists sure are fond of upholding a very strict binary replete with all of its behavioural and presentation gatekeeping and stereotypes.

This is just .. nuts. Really is. It makes zero sense.

Who is doing this?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm reminded about the vitriol aimed at Serena Williams. An exceptional athlete, the best tennis player of a generation, entirely unrivalled. Regularly compared in eyebrow-raising terms to Sharapova. Her body is constantly being policed.

I'm thinking about the butch cis women who are being accosted under suspicion of being trans for 'not looking female.'

I wonder what metric crapton of shit Fatima Whitbread would be facing were she competing today.

Hmmm. Invoking those comparisons strikes me as an attempt to close down debate.

 

[pengaleng]

I don't think you're a cunt - but I think if you raise the idea that it'll be pretty widespread that the next generation of trans people won't go through puberty (presumably through drugs), then you can expect some sort of discussion of that idea.

was directed at the cunts we are discussing who think it's alright to state their concerns about puberty blockers, this aint america.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hmmm. Invoking those comparisons strikes me as an attempt to close down debate.

on the grounds that...?

 

[pengaleng]

on the grounds that...?

they dont agree with it init. classic urbans

 

[frogwoman]

if it's an attempt to close down debate it's not doing very well is it given that the thread is 26 pages long.

 

[Pickman's model]

they dont agree with it init. classic urbans

nice that it's a man making the claim.

 

[frogwoman]

a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

 

[pengaleng]

nice that it's a man making the claim.

nah thats classic too

 

[frogwoman]

i wish people wouldn't do this emotional blackmail stuff either. they were just saying what it reminds them of, and caster semanya if you remember had to go through endless tests to determine her gender (with some people still casting aspersions on it today). it didn't seem like an attempt to silence anyone to me. why would that be an attempt to silence anything, they're just expressing their view.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I like how this convo is slyly implying that cis women above a certain hieght/weight shouldnt play sport because they are deemed manly. nice touch.

Yeah, that's bullshit though. Literally zero people have implied that. Does it really need to be pointed out out?

Sports being sex segregated, means winning in your class is a mix of pot luck (what you're born with, genetically) and skill and perseverance. It also means those in the class have a good chance of beating each other should hard work and perseverance pay off.

If the rules of sport are being changed so that it's not done by sex anymore, then what would the criteria be?

Literally no one here is policing Serena Williams. Or anyone else. I think Serena is bloody amazing.

 

[Vintage Paw]

The acceptable parameters of a woman's body is absolutely central to much of this debate. It has implications for not just trans women but cis women as well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, that's bullshit though. Literally zero people have implied that. Does it really need to be pointed out out?

Sports being sex segregated, means winning in your class is a mix of pot luck (what you're born with, genetically) and skill and perseverance. It also means those in the class have a good chance of beating each other should hard work and perseverance pay off.

If the rules of sport are being changed so that it's not done by sex anymore, then what would the criteria be?

Literally no one here is policing Serena Williams. Or anyone else. I think Serena is bloody amazing.

Surely the whole point here is that without segregation by sex, nobody would ever have heard of Serena Williams or any other top female athlete.