Should there be a ban on private ownership of firearms in England and Wales - With Poll.

[A380]

The last thread like this in 2008 ended in the dustbin. And the thread about August 2021 tragic active shooter event in Plymouth has three main themes mixed together.


So, I worked around guns for a good few years. When used to kill and injure people they are horrible things both in their actuality and what they say about humanity.

I've never been into shooting sports or hunting. but on the few occasions I've messed around on a sporting range found them quite fun, as working rages can be - any practice for fighting is a laugh when no one is really trying to kill you or (badly) hurt you. So I can see the attraction. I tend to waste my disposable income on other toys though.

I eat meat and 30 odd years ago helped hunt a warthog and several impala (all or which was for food - Mr wart hog was fucking delicious BTW) and it was a bit fun if I'm honest. I've never seen the attraction of rough shooting in the UK myself and think driven game shooting (whether it be pheasants here or Wild Boar in Eastern Europe is a bit sick).

Despite how it's sold, firearm legislation here has been about addressing active shooter events by people who either held or had recently held weapons lawfully (Hungerford, Dunblane) rather than the criminal use of illegal firearms here (mostly because the vast majority of the weapons out there in criminal hands are pretty shit and the ammunition is even worse*).

So it's basically illegal to own a hand gun or non-rimfire automatic rifle here. Bolt action rifles, and automatic rim fire rifles and other non-shotguns are quite hard to own unless you have a really good reason. Shotguns are much easier to own so, should we ban everything.

What say you hive mind.


*Note 'most' please take the exceptions into account when planning any response to someone trying to commit a crime against you with a gun...No refunds)

 

[Pickman's model]

this should have been a publick poll

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Somewhere between the last two (sensible) options. Tighten up the process for owning a shotgun, but not to the levels required for rifles/full firearms certificate.

 

[Colin Hunt]

I voted for the status quo. Clearly if we're having one mass shooting every decade our system isn't bad. The issue here seems to be more that the police gave a shotgun back to a man who shouldn't have had one.

 

[Griff]

Keep it the way it is, but maybe make getting a shotgun certificate a little harder.
You need to give your GP's details, have references and a home interview.
Not sure what else can be done.

Criminals with illegal guns are the problem, not the nearly 600k legally owned guns.
Apart from that one loser the other day who fell through the net.

 

[A380]

this should have been a publick poll

No, everyone on here would have gone for the top option in a public poll...

 

[Pickman's model]

No, everyone on here would have gone for the top option in a public poll...

i thought you had more experience of urban than that suggests

 

[A380]

Keep it the way it is, but maybe make getting a shotgun certificate a little harder.
You need to give your GP's details, have references and a home interview.
Not sure what else can be done.

Criminals with illegal guns are the problem, not the nearly 600k legally owned guns.
Apart from that one loser the other day who fell through the net.

Sadly criminals really aren't the risk here, unlike the US. They don't kill that many people and, bit of a value judgement here, those they do tend to, with a few tragic exception, (Burger Bar Boys for example), have chosen that lifestyle. No intelligence of a leakage of criminal guns to terrorists (because drug dealers and illegal armourers don't tend to be mad). All of our recent mass casualty active shooters have been carried out with legally held firearms.

 

[A380]

this should have been a publick poll

Just for you it is now.

 

[bellaozzydog]

If you banned farmers from having shotguns they’d have to throw themselves in combine harvesters to commit suicide

I’ve carried weapons for work both in the military and as a civilian. I don’t like them, they give you a strange sense of power/potential over and above what is healthy, it’s why mediocre self haters love guns

I’d say ban them all apart from some coppers and the military

in the military you have them around so much they lose this potential and are just an awkward heavy lump of metal you have to look after and not lose. Unlike the reverence civvie deficient mainly white middle aged fat men have for weapons they take out at the weekend and frot over

I was on a course (CP) and the firearms aspect of it was run by a bonfida Special forces small arms legend. He said if he had only one choice of gun, for all rounder performance he would choose a shotgun, and he wasn’t taking about shooting rats crows and rabbits

ban em all

 

[kebabking]

I hold both a FAC and a Shotgun cert - I take the view that to a large extent a gun is a gun, and that the artificial delineation between shotguns and rifles is pretty vacuous - either you have legitimate business with a firearm, and aren't a twat, and have somewhere secure to store it, or you don't.

I think that shotguns should be under the scope of a full FAC, with the background checks that that entails.

Of course, I also believe that if I drive 400 miles on the motorway I ought to see more than no police cars over the entire journey.

I find it interesting that many who think firearms should be banned because the enforcement mechanisms aren't perfect probably wouldn't accept that philosophy in any sphere of their lives...

 

[klang]

Clearly if we're having one mass shooting every decade our system isn't bad

quite a bit of room for improvement.

All of our recent mass casualty active shooters have been carried out with legally held firearms.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sadly criminals really aren't the risk here, unlike the US. They don't kill that many people and, bit of a value judgement here, those they do tend to, with a few tragic exception, (Burger Bar Boys for example), have chosen that lifestyle. No intelligence of a leakage of criminal guns to terrorists (because drug dealers and illegal armourers don't tend to be mad). All of our recent mass casualty active shooters have been carried out with legally held firearms.

What?

This is the first mass shooting in 11 years, during which between 20 to 30 people are murdered every year with guns, mostly by criminals with illegal ones.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I hold both a FAC and a Shotgun cert - I take the view that to a large extent a gun is a gun, and that the artificial delineation between shotguns and rifles is pretty vacuous - either you have legitimate business with a firearm, and aren't a twat, and have somewhere secure to store it, or you don't.

I think that shotguns should be under the scope of a full FAC, with the background checks that that entails.

Of course, I also believe that if I drive 400 miles on the motorway I ought to see more than no police cars over the entire journey.

I find it interesting that many who think firearms should be banned because the enforcement mechanisms aren't perfect probably wouldn't accept that philosophy in any sphere of their lives...

ultimately it’s the enhanced background checks that would mop up these unsuitable owners of shotguns. It wouldn’t take a trained Psychiatrist to cast an eye over an applications social media presence to identify a mind that shouldn’t have a gun

from recollection police firearms licensing coppers are somewhat thin on the ground and of course populated by coppers who “see eye to eye” with their local gun owners

for reference the current guidance

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/818022/Draft_firearms_statutory_guidance_-_16_July.pdf

 

[A380]

What?

This is the first mass shooting in 11 years, during which between 20 to 30 people are murdered every year with guns, mostly by criminals with illegal ones.

Yes, but most of those would be targeted killings of single competing criminals, the same effect could be achieved with an edged weapon (as is tragically so very often the case). It's hard to kill significant numbers of people as an active shooter (yes I know, I didn't write that book) with a knife or edged weapon as both London Bridge attacks showed.

 

[Cid]

Why can't anyone on here come up with decent poll options? It's a disgrace.

 

[A380]

... civvie deficient mainly white middle aged fat men...

I didn't know we had met...

 

[stdP]

Somewhere between the last two (sensible) options. Tighten up the process for owning a shotgun, but not to the levels required for rifles/full firearms certificate.

I voted for "status quo" but the above is more of what I'm looking for.

I used to do target shooting occasionally as a teenager after doing it in Scouts (I was never particularly good at it, but it was fun) and I've shot birds before (pheasants and pigeon) with shotguns for the pot (I think every meat eater should kill their own food at least once). I've not touched a firearm since coming to London but they're certainly very common in the country for both hobbies and pest control and I've not met a gun owner that didn't take safety and security extremely seriously.

The fallout from that prick in Plymouth is certainly going to be interesting to watch because on the face of it the mentally ill twat shouldn't have been allowed a TV license, although how much of his madness was public knowledge isn't certain at this point.

 

[MickiQ]

Keep the status quo, maybe tighten the rules a little. Once this guys weapon was taken off him because of an assault that should have been it.
But without meaning to cheapen the lives lost, one mad shooter per decade really isn't bad for a nation the size of this when you compare with certain other countries where it's a near weekly event

 

[LDC]

Meh, split between we all get an AK, and it staying the same, but with a good look at people applying (inc. their social media stuff) and then a 'one strike' policy for it being removed. Agree there's a slightly pointless distinction between shotguns of various types and other firearms due to slow changes over the years in response to things like this rather than it being a logical purpose designed process.

I was brought up in the country and loads of people went shooting, and I had a license for a shotgun when I was 13 btw, not sure that's still possible!

 

[maomao]

I would get rid of all guns from the world tomorrow. If you want to hunt or play sports get a bow and arrow. I know that's not particularly realistic it possible and it's not a big priority for me but fuck guns.

 

[souljacker]

Not sure which option to go for as I've had a few beers and been in the sun so not quite understanding the wording lol.

But as I said on t'other thread, my Dad shoots .22 rifles and has done for years (as do most of his farming family from the north). His rifle is in a gun safe, locked away and he holds no ammo in the house. All ammo is held at the rifle range and you need to sign for it when you get it out of the safe and sign back in any bullets you don't use as well as sign in the empties (proving you haven't nicked any obv). The police come round once a year to check his gun safe (and presumably check him out to make sure he isn't in danger of going postal). His rifle team are also the sort of people who will happily grass on someone in the club if they think they aren't the type who should own or be operating guns. Back in the day when pistol shooting was still allowed in the UK I remember him telling me on a few occasions of people who were removed from the club and reported to the police after exhibiting some worrying tendencies (there were two shooters kicked out shortly after Hungerford for instance).

This seems to me to be an incredibly safe way of controlling guns IMO. They are also bolt action non-magazine rifles so even if he did want to go mental in Waitrose, someone could easily jump on him when he was reloading.

I also know that he gets a huge amount of pleasure from shooting. He's been not far off Olympic standard at a couple of stages in his life and has been shooting for most of his life (I first shot with him when I was around 14 years old. I'm pretty sure he started even younger).

So no, don't ban them. Just make people jump through all the hoops he needs to. There is no need for a bloke on an estate in Plymouth to have a shotgun with cartridges in his house. Farmers, yes, they need them but clay shooters should be restricted in the same way as my Dad and other target shooters are.

 

[souljacker]

I would get rid of all guns from the world tomorrow. If you want to hunt or play sports get a bow and arrow. I know that's not particularly realistic it possible and it's not a big priority for me but fuck guns.

Bow and arrow will fuck you up if someone decides to go bonkers with one.

 

[maomao]

Bow and arrow will fuck you up if someone decides to go bonkers with one.

Good luck killing killing five people and hospitalising two in the space of a few minutes though. Or topping yourself in a hurry with it when the cops are closing in.

 

[stdP]

Bow and arrow will fuck you up if someone decides to go bonkers with one.

Having done archery as well, I concur. There seems to be a thread running through movies and TV that being hit by arrows or crossbow bolts is a minor annoyance; those things are fucking lethal. An experienced bowman can also probably maintain a higher rate of fire than someone using a pump-action shotgun which are a pain in the arse to reload.

Good luck killing killing five people and hospitalising two in the space of a few minutes though. Or topping yourself in a hurry with it when the cops are closing in.

Killing and maiming things is literally what they're designed for. Guns are probably more efficient at killing someone quickly but I think you're being dismissive of their capability for harm. Harder to use for suicide though, I'll grant you that.

 

[maomao]

An experienced bowman can also probably maintain a higher rate of fire than someone using a pump-action shotgun which are a pain in the arse to reload.

So several months of training required. And far more accuracy than a shotgun at least. I've shot a bow and arrow before but I doubt I could kill with one even given motivation. I know I could with a shotgun and I've never touched one.

 

[Serge Forward]

Couldn't participate in the poll because it doesn't offer the socialised ownership of guns in the hands of a mass revolutionary workers' movement (when there is one) as an option.

 

[A380]

Couldn't participate in the poll because it doesn't offer the socialised ownership of guns in the hands of a mass revolutionary workers' movement (when there is one) as an option.

Hail the Workers 211th Rifles

 

[LDC]

Hail the Workers 211th Rifles

I salute you comrade Captain-in-Chief of Remedial Company, The Workers 211th Rifles (Reserve).

 

[souljacker]

So several months of training required. And far more accuracy than a shotgun at least. I've shot a bow and arrow before but I doubt I could kill with one even given motivation. I know I could with a shotgun and I've never touched one.

I think you'd be surprised about how bad a shot you can be with a shotgun if you've never used one before. Even at a reasonable close range it's quite possible to completely miss with them.