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Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Don't know


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What I find unpleasant about all this is that when one looks at where low take up is its deprived communities. Some of the comments here about making it mandatory don't appear to want to see this. Rather than look at why deprived communities is where there is low take up.

BTW "nudging" is about making it mandatory. Whilst appearing to be giving a choice. Good Liberal get out clause.

i think the point is no matter what the reason people are not taking it, there might be a point - not far off by the looks of things - that we have to stick or twist, so if it's mandatory: potential to saves 10s of k of lives, and not mandatory: not saving 10s of K of lives, you would go for the latter? maybe i've given you a false dichotomy there, but i think it's a split that looms in peoples minds when discussing these things.

if mandatory meant ending these endless lockdowns/deaths, it's somehow feels the lesser of two evils. but agree should always be the last choice, the last roll of the dice. who knows what hte future holds? i thought we would be well over this shit by now, or well on our way out.
 
This demoralising for NHS staff. Like the majority who haven't had it they have perfectly good reasons by and large and aren't loons. I know some fantastic nurses that worked through this at great sacrifice and cynisism is very high.
The resources being taken away from services for patients to jab otherwise healthy people is wrong headed.
Boris has written a letter to us and it's going down as well as you can imagine.
 
Word on the street is that proletarian democracy are drafting a proposal to get jez on board with their Let Nurses Smoke On Duty campaign.
 
Like the majority who haven't had it they have perfectly good reasons by and large and aren't loons.

What are their 'perfectly good reasons'? The non-vaccinated people I have met in the NHS have no good reason, but have a messy mix of anti-vax misinformation/conspiracy theories/religious fundamentalism/or similar as their 'justification'.

The resources being taken away from services for patients to jab otherwise healthy people is wrong headed.

And given all the public health bodies (across the world btw) think jabbing 'otherwise healthy people' is the correct thing to do, I'd be interested where people you know (or is it just you?) get their evidence and belief that it's all 'wrong headed'?

What's your role in the NHS btw?
 
i think the point is no matter what the reason people are not taking it, there might be a point - not far off by the looks of things - that we have to stick or twist, so if it's mandatory: potential to saves 10s of k of lives, and not mandatory: not saving 10s of K of lives, you would go for the latter? maybe i've given you a false dichotomy there, but i think it's a split that looms in peoples minds when discussing these things.

if mandatory meant ending these endless lockdowns/deaths, it's somehow feels the lesser of two evils. but agree should always be the last choice, the last roll of the dice. who knows what hte future holds? i thought we would be well over this shit by now, or well on our way out.
tbh we are reaching a stage where it's of decreasing importance. A majority of the non-jabbed have now had covid at some point, and that proportion will be rising rapidly at the moment with omicron. At least the over-70s take-up has been very good, allowing us to avoid the horrors seen in Eastern Europe during the delta wave.

fwiw I favour some system of positive reinforcement. They're doing that in South Africa with food vouchers in return for getting jabbed. If you were to pay everyone £50 for getting jabbed, that is actually the equivalent of fining those refusing £50, but the carrot is far preferable the to stick. SA also has a lottery system going. Could also do that - entered in a draw if you get jabbed. I reckon £50 in your hand would be more effective, though.

Shouldn't be needed and the number of people refusing the vaccine for no good reason is depressing, but that is where we are.
 
Yes, I got the big qr code and the expiry date was above it.

But (seperately) I was surprised the booster had been entered , was just expecting it to be lost in the ether. All 3 jabs were under 'acute short term medicines'. The big qr and expiry date page made no reference to jabs.

No other medical info on the app for me at all, I'm not sure if it should be or not, I suppose it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, mine just has the QR code and expiry date. After seeing this I did attempt to check under a different bit to see what it says, cos I'm not confident they've got my jabs recorded properly, but that says they want me to prove my identity before I can access my records, and frankly I cba, I wouldn't have downloaded the app if I didn't need it for vaccine passport purposes anyway and as long as I can get that, I'm happy having the absolute minimum of information linked. No idea what my QR code actually says though.
This is an arguement to have post Covid rule. (and one I am sure will happen).
Right now. maybe not so much.
That's the thing that makes it tricky though, once something is established it's much harder to challenge. Slippery slope/thin end of the wedge arguments are often wank but they are sometimes valid as well, and if you want to be consistently opposed to, for instance, fire and rehire, you have to be opposed to it even when it's relatively popular and it seems like there's good argument for using it.
tbf the NHS (praise unto them) already use ‘behaviour’ to justify refusing/withdrawing care. Eg suicidal women being labelled with borderline personality disorder and being kicked off the crisis/community mental health team.
Not to mention the whole Serenity Integrated Monitoring thing.

Anyway, two fairly interesting articles from the Italian context that have probably turned up at some points on other threads but might as well go here too:



The Sergio Bologna one is actually much more straightforwardly anti-anti-vax than the title might make it sound, all it really says about the green pass issue is "We mustn’t confuse the anti-vaccination movement with the protest against the Green Pass. They are two different things and we should deal with them separately." - which is fine in itself, but I would like to know more about what Bologna does think about the latter.
 
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I'm extremely pro-vaccine, and I've been very frustrated by the UK's reluctance to jab kids over the last six months, for instance.

But I'm also very anti-vaccine passes. There's precious little evidence that they make any difference whatever, and so the costs are just too high - costs of social division and also the worrying current tendency towards poorly evidenced authoritarian measures as a first resort for panicking governments.

Being seen to be doing something is a major driver for most of these measures imo.
 
Scotland has had stricter mask rules over the last six months or so than England. As has Wales. Hasn't made any measurable difference - both Scotland and Wales have seen more deaths per head of population from Delta than England.
 
Scotland has had stricter mask rules over the last six months or so than England. As has Wales. Hasn't made any measurable difference - both Scotland and Wales have seen more deaths per head of population from Delta than England.

I was in ASDA the other day, about half were unmasked, including members of staff. One woman had a badge, like the ones off kids birthday cards, saying 'Mask Exempt'.
 
I'm extremely pro-vaccine, and I've been very frustrated by the UK's reluctance to jab kids over the last six months, for instance.

But I'm also very anti-vaccine passes. There's precious little evidence that they make any difference whatever, and so the costs are just too high - costs of social division and also the worrying current tendency towards poorly evidenced authoritarian measures as a first resort for panicking governments.

Being seen to be doing something is a major driver for most of these measures imo.
Using them as an excuse not to do other things is part of the agenda. I dont intend to repeat past disagreements with you about all those other things and what good they do, things which we seem unlikely to see eye to eye on at any stage of this pandemic.

Social divisions and going way too far with coercion are issues for sure. What do you think about the current form of Englands passes where they added a test option as an alternative to vaccination?

Reasons the UK establishment are not doing much in the way of the positive encouragement things you mention include being cheap, lazy, disinterested and in denial. However there is also a very real programme to improve access, communication and to try to convince people the hard way. But this is often done at the local level or within specific communities, so itts often quite invisible to those of us who arent part of the communities in question and are getting most of the story via the media.

Some of the uptake rates have been consistently impressive, others are more depressing. Lack of accurate population figures makes it harder to know quite how bad uptake has been in some places, especially cities.

The UK authorities were jealous of the increased vaccine uptake the likes of France got after imposing such passes, but there are many differences between the countries and it didnt seem likely that we would properly replicate this here.

Another potential problem with the nature of this debate is that although the vaccines against this disease can carry a large amount of pandemic weight, people do tend to overplay in their minds the extent to which the unvaccinated are driving waves and hospitalisation figures. Things are often way more complex than that, especially when a variant like Omicron arrives that appears to gain a chunk of its advantage from its ability to target people who have had a range of prior exposure to other strains and have already had various combinations and timing of vaccines. Solving the issue of unvaccinated people will not instantly fix all the other issues and we still need to allow some stuff other than vaccines to carry some of the pandemic weight, at least at this stage.
 
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tbh we are reaching a stage where it's of decreasing importance. A majority of the non-jabbed have now had covid at some point, and that proportion will be rising rapidly at the moment with omicron. At least the over-70s take-up has been very good, allowing us to avoid the horrors seen in Eastern Europe during the delta wave.

fwiw I favour some system of positive reinforcement. They're doing that in South Africa with food vouchers in return for getting jabbed. If you were to pay everyone £50 for getting jabbed, that is actually the equivalent of fining those refusing £50, but the carrot is far preferable the to stick. SA also has a lottery system going. Could also do that - entered in a draw if you get jabbed. I reckon £50 in your hand would be more effective, though.

Shouldn't be needed and the number of people refusing the vaccine for no good reason is depressing, but that is where we are.
Is there a source for this claim about the majority of the non vaccinated having had covid?

It's not something I've actually read up to now, though I admit I may have missed it.
 
What are their 'perfectly good reasons'? The non-vaccinated people I have met in the NHS have no good reason, but have a messy mix of anti-vax misinformation/conspiracy theories/religious fundamentalism/or similar as their 'justification'.



And given all the public health bodies (across the world btw) think jabbing 'otherwise healthy people' is the correct thing to do, I'd be interested where people you know (or is it just you?) get their evidence and belief that it's all 'wrong headed'?

What's your role in the NHS btw?

IC3D interested in your answers to this.
 
I'm absolutely in favour of 'No mask, no entry, no exceptions'.

If people are unmasked on the basis of respiratory problems, WTF are they doing in a hazardous environment?

Though I'm favour of people wearing face masks, I wouldn't be as draconian as 'no exceptions'. What about those who suffer with autism, some of whom may find wearing a face covering highly distressing due to the real sensory differences in which they experience their day to day living? And what about deaf people who obviously need to communicate with people? And should all people with respiratory problems be made not to shop whatsoever in a supermarket or such like, while this pandemic continues?
It's a balancing act, I know; and you will get those who won't wear masks or get jabbed simply because they don't want too. I get that. And I have no time for them (generally). But not every situation or circumstances are the same. Especially when you're dealing with millions upon millions of people living alongside a complex and ever changing pandemic of this nature. Personally, I think a one size fits all approach is not always possible, no matter how much we want it to be and no matter how much we desire it (for the greater good, I know). The situation is more nuanced and complex than that in certain instances.
 
Solving the issue of unvaccinated people will not instantly fix all the other issues and we still need to allow some stuff other than vaccines to carry some of the pandemic weight, at least at this stage.
Not to mention that, as the new variant reminds us, solving the issue of unvaccinated people within the UK is a very different question to solving it globally.
 
I'm absolutely in favour of 'No mask, no entry, no exceptions'.

If people are unmasked on the basis of respiratory problems, WTF are they doing in a hazardous environment?

Because people with pre-existing medical conditions that make wearing a mask a no-no are still allowed to take part in society? Would you have every person with COPD stay at home for the rest of their lives, for example?

I was in ASDA the other day, about half were unmasked, including members of staff. One woman had a badge, like the ones off kids birthday cards, saying 'Mask Exempt'.

Maybe wearing a mask would make her seriously ill, and so she was wearing the badge in an attempt to not be judged by unsympathetic busy-bodies.
 
Because people with pre-existing medical conditions that make wearing a mask a no-no are still allowed to take part in society? Would you have every person with COPD stay at home for the rest of their lives, for example?



Maybe wearing a mask would make her seriously ill, and so she was wearing the badge in an attempt to not be judged by unsympathetic busy-bodies.
:eek:

To your fist point. No, just until it is safe to do so.

To your second point. Would that be more seriously ill than catching Covid?
 
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