Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party

[Bear]

“This breakaway is not based on any political
principle. It is a vehicle for the out of control ego
of an individual

That's true.

“The SSP is the most open and democratic and tolerant
political party in Scotland. Factions and platforms
exist unimpeded within the party. All decisions are
arrived at democratically by the membership of the SSP
via the Annual conference and the bi monthly national
council meetings. Elections to the executive and other
key posts are conducted by secret ballot under the
single transferable vote system.”

The Liberal Democrats are more democratic, its one member one vote at their conference, no block votes.

““Tommy Sheridan’s breakaway will fade into oblivion
because it is based on a fraud.”

Tommy's 'group' will do better than what is left, they are really, really naive if they think otherwise.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

To be fair, Tommy Sheridan was only towing the line of Militant (now the Socialist Party) at that time.

I can understand given what has happened - senior members of the SSP testifying against him in court - why Tommy Sheridan feels that he cannot be a member of the SSP anymore.

But really it is tragic, both Rosie Kane and Tommy Sheridan are excellent tribunes of the oppressed and sincere socialists and to see these people attacking each other rather than the ruling class and the power structure is extremely depressing.

It is worrying that the split in the SSP (which given recent events was inevitable) will mainly benefit reactionaries rather than take forward the cause of socialism.

Let's hope, at least, that Tommy Sheridan's new party won't desert class politics for nationalism like the SSP.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have spoken to several SSP members and supporters since Tommy announced the possible new party. All of them former supporters and admirers of Tommy. None of them members of the United Left faction. All of them have gone off him since the court case - not all because they agree with the SSP exec stance, but some just because of Tommy's attitude since his win.

None will be going to any new party set up by Tommy. Most will be staying with the rump SSP, but some will be leaving activism, and some will not be voting at all at the next election.

Admittedly it wasn't a scientific sample, but we're talking a couple of dozen people. A vox pop if you like.

 

[greenman]

Let's hope, at least, that Tommy Sheridan's new party won't desert class politics for nationalism like the SSP.

Yay, yay, UK! UK all the way!

Smirks at Trotto-islamo-populists attempting to wrap themselves in the bloody Butcher's Apron (and cheekily calling this "class" politics)

Still, at least they agree with Georgie boy on one thing. And even Tommy has some things right.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Yay, yay, UK! UK all the way!

Smirks at Trotto-islamo-populists attempting to wrap themselves in the bloody Butcher's Apron (and cheekily calling this "class" politics)

Still, at least they agree with Georgie boy on one thing. And even Tommy has some things right.

Not at all - I have no commitment to the "United Kingdom" and support the right of people to democratically decide whether they want independence. I am proud to be anti-British!

I just see the fundamental divide in society as being class not nation. When the people of Ireland and India rose up it was a decisive blow against the British Empire, if Wales (where I live) gained independence, it would just mean another capitalist state. I have seen with my own eyes how nationalism blurs the class struggle and deflects the working class way from pinning the blame for things where it lies - with the capitalist system. Nationalism also posits a false solution to the problems that Wales and Scotland face.

The SSP have for a while moved away from class issues to tailing the SNP, what made them distinctive in Scottish politics was for the first time you had a strong voice for working class politics - unfortunately they then got in the game of having joint Nationalist get-togethers with the SNP rather than forging independent working class politics.

 

[JoePolitix]

Both the SWP and CWI platforms have predicably now issued statements saying that they will withdraw from the SSP. Can't be bothered to post links, they're all over the internet though.

 

[JHE]

Both the SWP and CWI platforms have predicably now issued statements saying that they will withdraw from the SSP.

Great. It can be a re-run of the Scargill Labour Party fiasco in miniature. Which sect will side with the Dear Leader to expel the other sect first?

 

[Bear]

Both the SWP and CWI platforms have predicably now issued statements saying that they will withdraw from the SSP. Can't be bothered to post links, they're all over the internet though.

The SWP are interested in backing the winning side, the SSP will have no MSP left after May.

 

[JoePolitix]

Great. It can be a re-run of the Scargill Labour Party fiasco in miniature. Which sect will side with the Dear Leader to expel the other sect first?

A predict the SSP will disolve quicker.

 

[greenman]

The major beneficiaries of all this will be the SGP and SNP I would guess....

On Udo's point - is not the UK a "prison house of nations"? Why do you think a majority of the ruling class (Scottish, English or Welsh) resolutely oppose the "break up of the UK"? Will the ruling class be stronger in a more devolved or confederal situation? Will the workers be weaker? Are India and Ireland not capitalist countries? Do Scottish, English or Welsh LEFT (or Civic) nationalisms weaken the working class more than right wing, reactionary British Nationalism?

Why do the majority of the English left (RDG, some Greens and one or two others excepted) persist in economism, millennarian insurrectionism and an "internationalism" that bolsters British nationalism by default whilst uncritically pandering to reactionary religious and political forms overseas, without even positing a radical transitional programme of democratic and republican reform for Britain as a whole?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Both the SWP and CWI platforms have predicably now issued statements saying that they will withdraw from the SSP. Can't be bothered to post links, they're all over the internet though.

Depressingly sectarian, though not unexpected.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9509
http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2006/08/21scotland.html

I understand the ISG and Socialist Resistance will be issuing a statement shortly supporting the continuation of the SSP and supporting the United Left.

 

[tollbar]

Depressingly sectarian, though not unexpected.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9509
http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2006/08/21scotland.html

I understand the ISG and Socialist Resistance will be issuing a statement shortly supporting the continuation of the SSP and supporting the United Left.

I note that the ISG comrades up here, after initially supporting the Sheridan camp are now reassessing their position in the light of a split.

As someone usually sympathetic to the ISG on many issues I have been finding it very difficult to understand the position taken by the scottish comrades.

 

[nwnm]

the war for McCoombes' ear

I note that the ISG comrades up here, after initially supporting the Sheridan camp are now reassessing their position in the light of a split.

As someone usually sympathetic to the ISG on many issues I have been finding it very difficult to understand the position taken by the scottish comrades.

Thats because, unlike some trainspotters, You've missed out on the subplot here between to orthodox trotskyist groupings who are courting the <former Militant> International Socialist Movement rump who control the SSP. In the <not Very> red corner we have the Democratic Socialist Party of Australia <who have already won over the odd section/international supporter who backed the ISM when they split with the Socialist Party>; in the other <not so> red corner we have the Usec <still smarting from the SP recruiting one of their splits in France, although they did a tit for tat job on the old Militant in Sri Lanka I believe>

I'd put the DSP down as odds on to win

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I note that the ISG comrades up here, after initially supporting the Sheridan camp are now reassessing their position in the light of a split.

As someone usually sympathetic to the ISG on many issues I have been finding it very difficult to understand the position taken by the scottish comrades.

maybe it's because the ISG comrades put the importance of retaining a single united socialist party above the interests of any narrow factional viewpoint ... what at first began as a dispute over the tactics to be followed by the SSP has now become a fight for its very survival, changing the nature of the argument.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Thats because, unlike some trainspotters, You've missed out on the subplot here between to orthodox trotskyist groupings who are courting the <former Militant> International Socialist Movement rump who control the SSP. In the <not Very> red corner we have the Democratic Socialist Party of Australia <who have already won over the odd section/international supporter who backed the ISM when they split with the Socialist Party>; in the other <not so> red corner we have the Usec <still smarting from the SP recruiting one of their splits in France, although they did a tit for tat job on the old Militant in Sri Lanka I believe>

I'd put the DSP down as odds on to win

Any subplots are in your fantasies and irrelevant to the issue of whether the SSP continues, or the cause of left unity is put back by a decade by numbskulls.

[and by the way the FI hasn't been called the 'USec' for a couple of years]

 

[Macullam]

Depressingly sectarian, though not unexpected.

I understand the ISG and Socialist Resistance will be issuing a statement shortly supporting the continuation of the SSP and supporting the United Left.[/QU

good to see they found a backbone from somewhere after spending the last few years tying the shoelaces of John Rees.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

good to see they found a backbone from somewhere after spending the last few years tying the shoelaces of John Rees.

You haven't been keeping up with events have you, if you are still repeating that hoary old chestnut?

Socialist Resistance were denounced as Islamophobes by the SWP and Galloway at the Respect conference last year for criticising Respect's lack of a manifesto commitment to gay rights, and have opposed the SWP line in public on issues like the Religious Hatred Bill and Galloway on Big Brother. They launched an opposition platform within Respect much to the annoyance of the SWP. The ISG also opposed several years ago the SWP's whole approach to building Respect as a coalition rather than a party. Not to mention the latest debacle over the SSP. I hardly call that tying shoelaces.

http://www.socialistresistance.net/GallowayBigbrother1.htm
http://www.socialistresistance.net/RespectNov05conf.htm
http://www.socialistresistance.net/religioushatredbil.htm
http://www.socialistresistance.net/RespectParty Forum.htm
http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/what/wwt01.htm
http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/ssp.htm

 

[Fullyplumped]

Well the Scottish working class is desperately hoping they'll make up their minds.

What are the posittions of the ISG and Socialist Resistance on the Monklands A&E question, by the way?

 

[tollbar]

I would hope they would oppose the closure.

And the closure of Ayr hospital A&E also.

 

[tollbar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5274304.stm

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Well the Scottish working class is desperately hoping they'll make up their minds.

What are the posittions of the ISG and Socialist Resistance on the Monklands A&E question, by the way?

Try asking John Lister, member of the ISG and prominent health campaigner and researcher. I think you'll find he's pretty clued up on these issues.

http://www.socialistresistance.net/julyhewitt.htm
http://www.keepournhspublic.com/pdf/thereinventionoffailure.pdf
http://firgoa.usc.es/drupal/node/30951
http://mupress.co.uk/authors/view_author.asp?AuthorID=103
http://www.corporate.coventry.ac.uk/cms/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2733&a=11048
http://home.btconnect.com/london-health/profile.htm

 

[JoePolitix]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5274304.stm

A more clear cut example of treachous scabbery is impossible to imagine. Not content with using the gutter press to do Tommy down, now self styled "socialists" are trying to get him banged up.

 

[Fullyplumped]

A more clear cut example of treachous scabbery is impossible to imagine. Not content with using the gutter press to do Tommy down, now self styled "socialists" are trying to get him banged up.

Nae offence, like, but that's nonsense, JoePolitix.

At the request of the Judge, and others, the Crown Office has instructed the Procurator Fiscal in Edinburgh to examine the evidence which was given by all of the witnesses in the civil case between Tommy Sheridan and the News of the World, with a view to determining whether there is a basis for instructing a criminal investigation.

One thing that should unte everyone, whichever fan club there are or aren't in, is that some people probably lied under oath in Court.

There is a huge public interest in examining this to see if there's prima facie evidence for prosecutions. I'm a citizen, and an elector in the City of Glasgow, and I would like to see a proper examination of which one or more of my MSPs perjured themselves.

 

[Fullyplumped]

I would hope they would oppose the closure. And the closure of Ayr hospital A&E also.

Don't you think there's sometimes a good case for centralising such services? But of course the political argument will always be "no closures!". That's certainly the line that John Reid MP is taking in his constituency.

But of course that isn't the point I'm making, which is that the machinations of two tiny trot groupuscules vis a vis which club to join are supremely irrelevant, and it is amazing to see them debated with such passion!

 

[greenman]

A more clear cut example of treachous scabbery is impossible to imagine. Not content with using the gutter press to do Tommy down, now self styled "socialists" are trying to get him banged up.

Yeah, right...
If Tommy has been telling the truth and the 11 exec members are liars, then he has nothing to fear does he? If the exec members were lying, then it is they who will get "banged up", no?
Remember it was TS, not the SSP exec majority who took this to the bourgeois courts in the first place, against the advice of the majority of the exec, as i understand it. The exec wanted the claims dealt with in a political manner as I understand it. (Perhaps they should remember that mature response now)
Any continuing legal proceedings now must be seen in that context.
If the exec members were lying (or not!), then I would say it is fairly brave, if possibly stupid of them to invite their own prosecution for perjury - but exactly the same could be said of Tommy Sheridan's original legal moves.
They are throwing themselves to the mercy of the bourgeois courts, as Tommy did.
It really is like a slow train wreck......tragic.

 

[danny la rouge]

A more clear cut example of treachous scabbery is impossible to imagine. Not content with using the gutter press to do Tommy down, now self styled "socialists" are trying to get him banged up.

You have got that completely upside down. Totally. Just reverse the parties and you'll have it right.

 

[JoePolitix]

Nae offence, like, but that's nonsense, JoePolitix.

At the request of the Judge, and others, the Crown Office has instructed the Procurator Fiscal in Edinburgh to examine the evidence which was given by all of the witnesses in the civil case between Tommy Sheridan and the News of the World, with a view to determining whether there is a basis for instructing a criminal investigation.

One thing that should unte everyone, whichever fan club there are or aren't in, is that some people probably lied under oath in Court.

There is a huge public interest in examining this to see if there's prima facie evidence for prosecutions. I'm a citizen, and an elector in the City of Glasgow, and I would like to see a proper examination of which one or more of my MSPs perjured themselves.

Being the Blairbot that you are, the only "interest" you have is to see any leftwing alternative to New Labour fail.

The news reports suggest that crown is responding to complaints made by individuals not the request of the judge. Tommy Sheriden suggests the complaint was made Brian Monteith and a member of the SSP EC (it was probably the same shitbag who leaked the alligations to the media in the first place).

No doubt shopping socialists to the cops is perfectly acceptable for New Labourites but I tend to think its a scabby and cowardly thing to do.

 

[tollbar]

The news reports suggest that crown is responding to complaints made by individuals not the request of the judge. Tommy Sheriden suggests the complaint was made Brian Monteith and a member of the SSP EC (it was probably the same shitbag who leaked the alligations to the media in the first place).

.

Not according to Radio Scotland this afternoon. They are saying that the investigation announced today was at the behest of the court based on the remarks of the trial judge, Turnbull.

The other investigations being carried oiut by Lothian and Borders, and now Strathclyde police are seperate as far as I know.

 

[danny la rouge]

(it was probably the same shitbag who leaked the alligations to the media in the first place).

Well, given that the first allegation made by the media was made by Anvar Khan, who claimed to have been personally involved in group sex with Tommy, the media didn't really need a leak, did it? In fact, you could say Tommy was himself the leak by getting involved with Khan.

 

[charlie mowbray]

As regards the ISG, on the ground in Scotland the ISG (all 6 of them) has actually supported wee Tommy, in contrast to the rest of the ISG in Britain. So unless the Scots ISG are doing the ol' Leninist quickstep ( not unimaginable) then there might be problems ahead for the ISG as a whole!!!