q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
osterberg said:
With one or two honorable exceptions, not in my experience.
Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party
- Thread starter Fullyplumped
- Start date
With one or two honorable exceptions, not in my experience.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
osterberg said:Yeah,sparsely populated areas like Dundee and Aberdeen...
Just a teeny bit Glasgow- centric are we?
I think you might be painting an overly rosy picture,but yeah lets give it a year.
Edit:"very few activists, but loads of sectarian hacks from the CWI and the SWP"
Don't get that one.Hacks they may or not be but they're activists too.
Remind me what the positive contribution to Scottish politics of the SWP was when they were on their own before they joined the SSP in 2001?...
...oh yes, the slogan:
“We don’t need devolution - What we need is revolution”.
was a great contribution, of course.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Fisher_Gate said:Remind me what the positive contribution to Scottish politics of the SWP was when they were on their own before they joined the SSP in 2001?...
...oh yes, the slogan:
“We don’t need devolution - What we need is revolution”.
was a great contribution, of course.
Seems pretty much correct. A scottish parliament or workers soviets - I know which one I would pick.
I agree, great slogan.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Oh, jolly good.
She's probably right.
Scargill's party joins crowded socialist poll battle
THE Socialist Labour Party of Scotland is to field candidates across Scotland next year and hopes to capitalise on the infighting and division currently consuming the former members of the Scottish Socialist Party.
The SLPS believes it can make progress at the expense of the SSP and its breakaway faction, Solidarity, by appealing to the left-wing vote in Scotland.
...Critics say that another socialist party would split the left-wing vote, but Ms McDaid insisted that her party's presence in the election would not have that result.
THE Socialist Labour Party of Scotland is to field candidates across Scotland next year and hopes to capitalise on the infighting and division currently consuming the former members of the Scottish Socialist Party.
The SLPS believes it can make progress at the expense of the SSP and its breakaway faction, Solidarity, by appealing to the left-wing vote in Scotland.
...Critics say that another socialist party would split the left-wing vote, but Ms McDaid insisted that her party's presence in the election would not have that result.
She's probably right.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Unfortunately comrade that was your slogan during the first (failed) referendum in 1979 when you advocated a "no" vote alongside Margaret Thatcher, not the successful one in 1999 when you were enthusiastic supporters of devolution. (I got it off a CWI article criticising the SWP by the way!). In 2001, justifying the decision to join the SSP, Chris Bambery waxed lyrically in Socialist Review about the gains of the only democratic parliament Scotland has ever had ...
It's the inconsistency that is ironic, not the slogan itself
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Oh dearie me.
Sheridan's fresh start plagued by aide's comments
The most interesting bit is that Solidarity For A Hairier Scotland is admitting that it is employing a spin doctor.
Sheridan's fresh start plagued by aide's comments
Jim Monaghan, interim media co-ordinator of Solidarity - Scotland's Socialist Movement, Sheridan's new party, told a Scottish Socialist party discussion forum that he believed some of the allegations in the tabloid stories, but thought they had been exaggerated.
In the latest twist, leaked emails from 7 August, three days after the verdict, report Monaghan saying: 'I belive (sic) that some of the stories about Tommy are true but they are overstated and have added sleaze like drinking and spanking.'
'Tommy was asked if the Notw story (married MSP is swinging spanker) could be him, he said yes, some would take that to mean all of it, Tommy meant that it probably was him as he once went to that club with Anvar Khan. So he denied parts of it (cocaine, champagne, spanking). Some remember the denial bits, some remember the admission bits. Human memories are faulty and we remember things the way we want to.'
In the latest twist, leaked emails from 7 August, three days after the verdict, report Monaghan saying: 'I belive (sic) that some of the stories about Tommy are true but they are overstated and have added sleaze like drinking and spanking.'
'Tommy was asked if the Notw story (married MSP is swinging spanker) could be him, he said yes, some would take that to mean all of it, Tommy meant that it probably was him as he once went to that club with Anvar Khan. So he denied parts of it (cocaine, champagne, spanking). Some remember the denial bits, some remember the admission bits. Human memories are faulty and we remember things the way we want to.'
The most interesting bit is that Solidarity For A Hairier Scotland is admitting that it is employing a spin doctor.
nightbreed
Im Bored
Nigel Irritable said:
This reminds me of what happened to Militant in the 90s. 8000 members , more full timers than the LP down to three men and a dog today.
BTW I went enthusiastically to a cnwp meeting in Southampton a couple of months ago . 18 people turned up . Most of them SP members. I left wondering where this new workers party is going to come from .
Can't win with you,mate.Slag off the SWP for not agreeing with you in 1979 (27 years ago) and slag them off for inconsistency when they agree with you now.Fisher_Gate said:
Even Lenin and Trotsky changed their minds on occaision. Nothing is set in stone . Unless one is a dogmatic sectarian of course
On the Manchester anti-war demo this Saturday.
Lots of Solidarity placards and a banner from Inverclyde Solidarity branch ( I believe that's in the central belt).
No SSP evident but there was a big pile of Scottish Socialist Voice on the Socialist Resistance stall.Not much effort seemed to be expended selling it.
Isn't it ironic that the nationalist SSP have to rely on Englsh lefties to sell their paper at one of the biggest anti-war events of the year?
Lots of Solidarity placards and a banner from Inverclyde Solidarity branch ( I believe that's in the central belt).
No SSP evident but there was a big pile of Scottish Socialist Voice on the Socialist Resistance stall.Not much effort seemed to be expended selling it.
Isn't it ironic that the nationalist SSP have to rely on Englsh lefties to sell their paper at one of the biggest anti-war events of the year?
I don't normally reply to the islamophobe but the founding statement of Solidarity says;JHE said:
From Solidarity
I'm sure the rump SSP would express similar sentiments but judging from last Saturday's demonstration,Solidarity is more likely to put them into practice.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
nightbreed said:
While the Socialist Party is certainly smaller than Militant was in the mid-1980s, it remains one of only two remotely sizeable socialist organisations in England or Wales. It managed in a very difficult period to hold together a solid core of activists around revolutionary socialist ideas and in more recent times to slowly begin growing again. That, to my mind at least, is something of an achievement in a time when all else around was giving up the ghost.
I do agree with you about the vicious circle which can occur when an organisation runs into trouble, shrinkage leading to further demoralisation and so on.
nightbreed said:
Nobody is under any illusions that rebuilding working class political organisation will be anything other than a long, complicated and at times very difficult process. I'm glad to hear that you went along to a meeting about it rather than just offering cynical comments by the way.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
JHE said:
Both, as I understand it, have the same formal position: for an independent socialist Scotland. It remains to be seen whether Solidarity will follow the SSP down the outright nationalist path of advocating capitalist independence.
JHE
.
As you know very well, silly Islamophile Social Worker, Sheridan-Solidarity is "for an independent socialist Scotland".osterberg said:
http://www.solidarityscotland.org/
If the SSP's policy for an independent socialist Scotland makes it nationalist, Sheridan-Solidarity is too.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Nigel Irritable said:
Evidence, please.
seems pretty clear to me.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Fisher_Gate said:
Are you serious? Do you make a habit of taking part in lengthy discussions of political parties which you evidently know little about? Go google for the Scottish Independence Convention or the Declaration of Calton Hill. The first is a forum for Scottish Independence, initiated by the SSP as a way of starting a kind of pro-independence movement with the capitalist nationalist parties. The second is a document put together by the SSP with some other nationalist figures. Both call for independence without mention of socialism: ie they call for capitalist independence. You can also go through the archives of Scottish Socialist Voice and dig out some of the many pro-capitalist independence articles.
Fisher_Gate said:
Yes. As I stated above the formal position of both the SSP and Solidarity is to call for an independent socialist Scotland.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
JHE said:
The SSP's nationalist slide started with Sheridan as convenor and continued with Fox in that post. Convenor by the way is a figurehead post, the real power rests with the SSP Executive Committee. Sheridan was on the EC throughout and as far as I know either supported or went along with all aspects of the SSP's slide towards supporting capitalist independence as a stepping stone.
That's part of the reason why I said "it remains to be seen whether Solidarity will follow the SSP down the outright nationalist path of advocating capitalist independence". Sheridan himself may want that, or he may have changed his views. The balance of forces within Solidarity is different to that in the old SSP. We just don't know what most of its independent members or supporters think on the issue. The Socialist Worker Platform's views are also an unknown - they produced some anti-independence discussion material, but they also voted for resolutions backing independence at SSP conferences when they thought it suited their interests.
We can at least say with certainty that the International Socialists will continue to support the idea of an independent socialist Scotland, with the emphasis firmly on socialist.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
Nigel Irritable said:
The English left crack me up.
We dont support independence as a stepping stone, we support it as a principle...just like we support integrity as a principle.
The UK state is a regime which supports terrorism internationally and repression internally. It indulges in imperial wars of aquisition, has kicked the Chagos islanders off their land to make way for a US base and has sold arms to some of the most vicious governments internationally.
Within the UK it dawn raids, detains and deports families, including locking up young children and babies in secure units; is proposing a mass surveillence system of all of its citizens, and has had tens of thousands of people arrested under the new terrorism laws, 200 of them at the ruling party's conference. Furthermore through ASBOs, there is now the power to make up laws which apply only to particular individuals. There is an exclusion zone around parliament and the abolishition of parliament act is now in committee stage.
Is it any wonder we want no part of it?
The English dont fare any better - they have had top-up fees, foundation hospitals and the privatisation of schools pushed through on the backs of Scottish and Welsh MPs.
Yet *still* the brit-nationalists of the English left insist that Britain is Best.
The biggest thing that the UK left could do to advance the cause of internationalism is to completely destroy the UK state.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Nigel Irritable said:Are you serious? Do you make a habit of taking part in lengthy discussions of political parties which you evidently know little about? Go google for the Scottish Independence Convention or the Declaration of Calton Hill. The first is a forum for Scottish Independence, initiated by the SSP as a way of starting a kind of pro-independence movement with the capitalist nationalist parties. The second is a document put together by the SSP with some other nationalist figures. Both call for independence without mention of socialism: ie they call for capitalist independence. You can also go through the archives of Scottish Socialist Voice and dig out some of the many pro-capitalist independence articles.
Yes. As I stated above the formal position of both the SSP and Solidarity is to call for an independent socialist Scotland.
Remind me what the position of the leader of your party was on this?
Oh yes, it's not difficult to find ... see below ... and tell me if it is a 'pro-capitalist' position, has he changed his mind somehow, or are you now supporting a party with a 'pro-capitalist' leadership as an alternative?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Fisher_Gate said:
He even moved a motion in the parliament supporting the unconditional independence position. No mention of the S-word in this motion in the name of your leader.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/sch/motion.page?clause=WHERE motionid=5728
JHE
.
I think Nigel Irritable is a Paddy, not a Sassanach.q_w_e_r_t_y said:
On the other hand, I am English - and my point here is simply that there is no difference on the national question between Sheridan and the SSP people he shat on. (I think you agree.)
I have no difficulty respecting the principled democratic Scottish republican position Sheridan and you take. I'd prefer the Scots not to secede, but if secession becomes the settled will of the Scottish people, no obstacles should be put in your way.
Nigel, what's going to happen if and when the Social Workers manage to turn Solidarity into a Scottish version of Respect? Will the CWI people leave?
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
JHE said:
Sheridan was very supportive of independence in the SSP. However with the CWI and SWP in Solidarity, he might come under pressure to drop (or at least underplay) independence - how that would go down with the rest of Solidarity I'm not sure.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
q_w_e_r_t_y said:
Not to mention the Scottish people ... 44% of whom now support independence according to the latest YouGov poll. http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/STI060101004_1.pdf
In poll after poll the majority of the working class want to bring back hanging.That doesn't mean its a good thing.Fisher_Gate said:
As an ex-pat Scot in Wales I've never been to fussed about independence
one way or another but I'd be happy to see the UK state break up.
So an independant socialist Scotland?Is Socialism in one country possible?
Would a little celtic island of socialism survive in a sea of capitalism?
osterberg said:
Why sit on the fence then? Oppose Scottish independence.
Yet what amuses me about English socialists like Fishergate is that whilst they wax lyrically about Scottish independence, they say nothing about England. I'm waiting for Fishergate to demand that Respect calls for an independent England.
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