Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?

[steeplejack]

If Scotland votes yes I think your point above will be the overriding reason. As far as I can see the No camp has failed to form a single coherent argument for the Union beyond 'Yes, it's a bit shit but it could be worse'.

there's been some tear stained stuff about the Olympic games and I am sure the Battle of Britain memorial flight will be scrambled at the appropriate moment.

 

[Quartz]

what do you base this on?

His ego.

 

[steeplejack]

know him personally, do you?

 

[danny la rouge]

Bit confused by this reply. Could you advise which part of gosub 's post you're referring to?

All of it. I had already covered all his points, and not for the first time. There's a very long thread in the Scotland sub forum. The issue has been discussed repeatedly there.

Furthermore, I occasionally take a scanner at having to explain a position which is, while easy to explain, not my own.

For the record (again not for the first time), if there is to be an independent Scotland, I don't think it should be in the EU. (It should join EFTA. That gives us access to the EU market without tariffs, but wouldn't mean having to sign up to agreements such as the fisheries policy with discards and so on).

I also think that there should be a separate currency, not currency union. There should be a Scottish central bank, not continued use of B of E.

There should be no NATO membership.

There should be no monarchy.

The renationalisation of the Royal Mail should include a democratic structure. As should rail renationalisation.

And much more I haven't covered.

Finally, the phrase "nonsense on stilts" was cheekily pilfered from George Galloway, who used it repeatedly in his pro Union TV debate recently.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

All of it. I had already covered all his points, and not for the first time. There's a very long thread in the Scotland sub forum. The issue has been discussed repeatedly there.

But that's not got anything to do with his actual post. All he said was that Ireland's not in Schengen, whereas any new applicants must join. Seems accurate to me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If Scotland votes yes I think your point above will be the overriding reason. As far as I can see the No camp has failed to form a single coherent argument for the Union beyond 'Yes, it's a bit shit but it could be worse'.

tbh if they'd just stuck with that, they'd probably be doing better. My guess is that George Osborne's highlighting of the currency issue has probably been their strongest negative argument. It is true that the fUK will hold all the aces wrt currency and arrangements that will necessarily limit Scotland's fiscal autonomy. The bollocks about problems with the EU is exactly that, bollocks. But the fear that the fUK would interfere with Scotland's fiscal policies is real enough.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Finally, the phrase "nonsense on stilts" was cheekily pilfered from George Galloway, who used it repeatedly in his pro Union TV debate recently.

He stole it from Jeremy Bentham.

 

[steeplejack]

the EU negotiations will very much be a moveable feast. Again, realpolitik will win the day.

The idea that the EU will be happy for energy-rich Scotland to stay outside of the EU because it is a bit reluctant about Schengen and / or imposing a border with England really is laughable.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

If there is a yes vote will be seeing Russian special forces seizing Berwick town hall? That's the real question

 

[steeplejack]

"pro-Russian activists" on the march even before the vote

(don't tell the Daily Mail)

 

[danny la rouge]

But that's not got anything to do with his actual post. All he said was that Ireland's not in Schengen, whereas any new applicants must join. Seems accurate to me.

Already covered. See my previous posts.

 

[danny la rouge]

He stole it from Jeremy Bentham.

I know he didn't invent it. But he was so pleased with it, he overused it to the extent of parody. It has become something of an injoke in the commentary here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For the record (again not for the first time), if there is to be an independent Scotland, I don't think it should be in the EU. (It should join EFTA. That gives us access to the EU market without tariffs, but wouldn't mean having to sign up to agreements such as the fisheries policy with discards and so on).

I also think that there should be a separate currency, not currency union. There should be a Scottish central bank, not continued use of B of E.

There should be no NATO membership.

There should be no monarchy.

The renationalisation of the Royal Mail should include a democratic structure. As should rail renationalisation.

And much more I haven't covered.

Ah, you old romantic.

 

[gosub]

the passports are a question of interpretation, and there is absolutely no appetite for border controls and passports on the Scotland -England border (the same as there are none on the border between RoI and NI.)

whether Scotland will have to "rejoin" the EU is also open to interpretation and legal opinion is divided. Realpolitik will win the day. Why would the EU want to exclude an energy rich and wealthy independent contributor?

Neither side of the debate has really covered itself in glory in terms of "honest discussion" so far, to be honest.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S...opean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

Holyrood is hearing evidence that it might be like Croatia to boost its position but Spain (who are in a position of veto) both PM and Foreign minister say have to rejoin. Rejoin and its Schengen and there is even less appetite for that in rUK. Hence borders. Stay out and the island can muddle along similar as before.

proper indepenance is what is on the table (as wanted by the Nats I know) but the only way they think they can win the vote is by dishonestley trying to claiming theat change won't mean change. Hell of a way to set about becoming a full on country.

I'm not a fan of EU either but do know a fair amount about it.

 

[danny la rouge]

Hahahahaha! Salmond won't step aside until he dies or is incapacitated or a better position presents itself. And I think the only way upwards for him would be Secretary-General of the UN.

This is one of the more bizarre elements of the No campaign; personifying a Yes vote with Salmond.

The Yes campaign is actually a very lively grassroots movement, and far from being centred the SNP, is a broad left coalition. The RIC is very active, and entirely non SNP.

Furthermore, Salmond is not a dictator. Nor is he particularly settled in his role. He has already retired once, when his wife was ill, and had to be coaxed back (when John Swinney made a pig's ear of the job of leadership).

And while I'm here, the Mail article I linked to above said he has a grievance with the English. That's entirely in the writer's mind. I will not be voting SNP. But Salmond's case is about Scottish self government and democracy. The English don't come into it.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

It's an interesting one, and I suspect largely connected to the utter shiteness of the Westminster Government that the No campaign do not and cannot have a positive message - even a slightly more progressive and competent government in London would undermine the pro-independence campaign in my view...

 

[geminisnake]

And while I'm here, the Mail article I linked to above said he has a grievance with the English.

A warning would have been nice I didn't even let it finish loading once I realised! And I'd rather have a panda than a prince Unless it's the purple prince. I'd have him

 

[weepiper]

People don't seem to realise that the SNP and Salmond himself are very popular. There's this element of 'oooh now they've snuck in you'll never get rid of them'. They're in because we voted them in in a massive landslide.

 

[Quartz]

This is one of the more bizarre elements of the No campaign; personifying a Yes vote with Salmond.

As the leader of the SNP, he is very much the face of the Yes campaign. And yes, there are many more people to the Yes campaign than Salmond. Both statements have little to do with my observation.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not a fan of EU either but do know a fair amount about it.

It's funny how so many of the UKIP fellow traveler Euro sceptics want the EU to behave in ways it never behaves. Yes, the rule exists, but the EU drops rules left right and centre if it has to. I already gave you the example of the Copenhagen Agreement which says new members have to sign up to the euro. And yet Denmark, where it was composed, doesn't use the euro. That is entirely illustrative of how the EU works.

 

[steeplejack]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S...opean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

Holyrood is hearing evidence that it might be like Croatia to boost its position but Spain (who are in a position of veto) both PM and Foreign minister say have to rejoin. Rejoin and its Schengen and there is even less appetite for that in rUK. Hence borders. Stay out and the island can muddle along similar as before.

proper indepenance is what is on the table (as wanted by the Nats I know) but the only way they think they can win the vote is by dishonestley trying to claiming theat change won't mean change. Hell of a way to set about becoming a full on country.

I'm not a fan of EU either but do know a fair amount about it.

Spain have also said that they will not interfere in Scotland's application / EU continuation if the result of the referendum is democratic and fair. So their position is not really all that consistent.

you seem to be consistently overlooking the point about realpolitik which (also knowing a wee bit about the EU) has consistently trumped everything else in its evolving history.

The nationalists badly mishandled the EU thing and that was more damaging to their cause, early on, than anything Bitter Tigether have come up with. Their stated policy of "Indpendence in Europe" is a legal and political absurdity which may have made some sense in the early 1990s, when they came up with, but which has badly needed revising for over a decade. Then their blandishments that they would get into the EU no bother came unstuck, there was the legal advice being hushed up...all very embarrassing and avoidable.

That said the positions are caricatured on both sides of the argument. I'm sure it wont be as easy as just continuing as a new EU member as though nothing has happened, but then I'd be astonished if (realpolitik again) there was an outright veto either.

 

[steeplejack]

As the leader of the SNP, he is very much the face of the Yes campaign. And yes, there are many more people to the Yes campaign than Salmond. Both statements have little to do with my observation.

^^ definitely of the "Salmond is worse than Mugabe" persuasion....

 

[danny la rouge]

As the leader of the SNP, he is very much the face of the Yes campaign. And yes, there are many more people to the Yes campaign than Salmond. Both statements have little to do with my observation.

No he isn't. He hasn't even been the face of the SNP’s campaign, Sturgeon has. (And she's my bet on the next leader before long, btw, but don't bother the betting shop with my tip, everyone else thinks so, too).

 

[steeplejack]

If NS takes over from Salmond that will send the naysayers into a total tailspin; though whilst Salmond is seen as too "smug" and "if he was chocolate he'd eat himself", Sturgeon gets dismissed by detractors as a "nippy sweetie" and other such derogatory terms.

Sturgeon is really the obvious candidate to take the SNP on.

 

[Quartz]

^^ definitely of the "Salmond is worse than Mugabe" persuasion....

Speak for yourself.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Already covered. See my previous posts.

I just reviewed your posts in this thread, and could not find anything contradicting/answering gosub's point (other than a claim that the EU is pragmatically lax because Denmark uses the Krone)

A little help, please?

 

[butchersapron]

Speak for yourself.

You have previously claimed that he's a wannabe dictator and once independence is won he will look to be aggressively expansionist.

 

[steeplejack]

where did he say that? what a roaster.

 

[butchersapron]

Right now I'm thinking that Salmond's anti-English rhetoric and actions bode ill for democracy in an independent future. Once Scotland's separated, he'll turn his ire elsewhere. It makes me think that Salmond wants to become a dictator.

 

[gosub]

Spain have also said that they will not interfere in Scotland's application / EU continuation if the result of the referendum is democratic and fair. So their position is not really all that consistent.

you seem to be consistently overlooking the point about realpolitik which (also knowing a wee bit about the EU) has consistently trumped everything else in its evolving history.

The nationalists badly mishandled the EU thing and that was more damaging to their cause, early on, than anything Bitter Tigether have come up with. Their stated policy of "Indpendence in Europe" is a legal and political absurdity which may have made some sense in the early 1990s, when they came up with, but which has badly needed revising for over a decade. Then their blandishments that they would get into the EU no bother came unstuck, there was the legal advice being hushed up...all very embarrassing and avoidable.

That said the positions are caricatured on both sides of the argument. I'm sure it wont be as easy as just continuing as a new EU member as though nothing has happened, but then I'd be astonished if (realpolitik again) there was an outright veto either.

Don't think it will be a veto, think as the Commision have told Holyrood it will be a rejoin. The whole EU thing sells itself on being about stopping nationalistic disputes developing (skeptical myself). To help catalyse fractures in existing nation states runs counter to stated proEuropean ideals, that's the politics real or otherwise.
A lot of disgruntlement the people of EUrope have with their political classes stem from the non democratic stuff coming out of EU and the hollowing out of national parliaments. Take Royal Mail that's EU for a start and third way privatisation of the Health Service - EU budgetary constraints and opening up to competition straight out of the Single Market play book. Westminster deserves a kicking for allowing itself to be the front man for these policies but Salmond just wants to wear the same mask and doesn't warrant support. Its the opposite of Littlebabyjesus its the removing the democratic accountable nation sate that warrants drawing a cock on the paper rather than fervent "nationalism'