scissor paper stone 50 BNP v. 200 UAF who wins?

[durruti02]

@durruti02. Perhaps the best thing to do is to ignore the fascists completely, huh? Oh, and nobody sold any papers to anyone on Saturday. The whole point of Saturday was to show that there is opposition to the BNP and that worked. We spoke to a lot of people, dished out a lot of leaflets and got a decent response wherever we went. As far as it went, that's that job done. The next stage is to get some more formal - and local - organised opposition, and that's in the process of happening. As far as UAF is concerned, the demonstration was successful if only because it showed people that there was opposition to the BNP out there and that they would not be isolated. What's your problem with that?

john mate you have totally missed my rather bizarrely put point ..

it is that, while SWP/UAF can do all the pickets demos leaflet they want it is irrelevent for 3 reason

1) you normally then call on people ( already totally alienated ) to vote for Labour!! ( which is totally counterproductive)

2) you do NOT provide any outlet for people ..

3) they are not involved with real life .. just a virtual politicos world

so while i am sure you can outdemo the BNP they are meanwhile laughing at you as they are busy doing the door to door and the pubs and clubs .. and as we see in lanc and yorks the UAF strategy has been a total and utter failure .. and considering the large amount of work put in by good genuine people in the main this is sad

just moral exortations to not vote fasc are meaningless .. people are sick of labour and want to protest ( p.s to be clear a lot of bnp voters are middle class tories .. i am talking about the w/c areas that are voting BNP)

 

[durruti02]

and the bnp won a massive chunk the ones they stood in


speaking of the uaf, it sort of annoys me while i'm down here at uni, there is a thriving UAF student society but virtually no fashhere in brighton, but the whole situation in west essex/east london is so dire that at a by-election in Rainham in 2004, the only anti fash anything that i saw was a poster i'd made and printed myself, which was, within five minutes personally ripped down by griffin himself.

that is so typical of this trot/politico/student style of politics mate! instead of prioritising dealing with the issues that affect local people the SW etc big up fronts like this as feeders to their party .. sad ( and wrong!)

 

[audiotech]

sorry???? you are surpassing yourself here .. BNP have never stood against HI so there is no direct comparison ..

Can't help "surpassing" sometimes. I know the the BNP have never stood against HI, but their results elsewhere in a certain area of London suggests you have some work to do. Pandering to the politics of the BNP (reference your latest misleading post on another thread) wont help you either.

 

[durruti02]

Can't help "surpassing" sometimes. I know the the BNP have never stood against HI, but their results elsewhere in a certain area of London suggests you have some work to do. Pandering to the politics of the BNP (reference your latest misleading post on another thread) wont help you either.

please mc5 don't be daft .. it is NOT pandering to the politics of the BNP to argue that immigration has a role to play in depressing wages .. it is this refusal to deal with reality that in fact plays into the hands of the BNP

as for HI of course we and the IWCA have some work to do .. on urban it seems to be getting the left to deal with reality!!

on the street it is often in trying to persuading people to overcome the cyncism they have developed in politics after contact with the SW left.

the BNP have it easy they do not demand anything of their voters .. and there are hundreds of thousends of people looking for an protest party/ alternative .. all they have to do is stand .. the lies about african asylum seekers are pretty meaningless

our politics are NOT about promising people this and that but about creating an alternative and asking people to get involved in creating a better world .. it is a harder strategy!

take a look at Harold Hill in Havering and you will see while IWCA had a branch out there they did incredibly well in local elections .. and what is interesting is after that branch collapsed the BNP moved in and i think got elected ..

 

[audiotech]

please mc5 don't be daft .. it is NOT pandering to the politics of the BNP to argue that immigration has a role to play in depressing wages .. it is this refusal to deal with reality that in fact plays into the hands of the BNP

Here we go again.

Durruti02 you mislead. That article makes clear that wages are not falling as you suggest, but rather that wages are not rising as expected and it's not just immigrants having an impact on wage levels.

 

[TopCat]

I think its the sheer force of your arguments, particularly the way you brilliantly expose the various forces of revisionism, centrism and other deviationist trends in the workers movement.

I left the Sparts to dedicate myself full time to the purer ideology of Marxist-Mk12ist thought

Are you from the USA?

 

[durruti02]

Here we go again. Quote:


Originally Posted by durruti02
please mc5 don't be daft .. it is NOT pandering to the politics of the BNP to argue that immigration has a role to play in depressing wages .. it is this refusal to deal with reality that in fact plays into the hands of the BNP

MC Here we go again.

Quote:
Durruti02 you mislead. That article makes clear that wages are not falling as you suggest, but rather that wages are not rising as expected and it's not just immigrants having an impact on wage levels.

no sorry you have goit the economics wrong here MC

.. i showed to you yesterday on the OECD thread that overall wages may be rising but at the lower end they are falling and it is at this end of the wages spectrum that imm/igration is having the most effect ..

are you saying this is not true??

personally i stated to you that my wages have, relative to average wages, gone down c.20% over c15 years( and have gone down probably 50% compared to london wages and more re cost of living)

this, i and my colleagues, put down to CCT/outsourcing etc but also that this process , without what the guardian refers to an open door policy, would NOT Have been possible.

 

[audiotech]

no sorry you have goit the economics wrong here MC

.. i showed to you yesterday on the OECD thread that overall wages may be rising but at the lower end they are falling and it is at this end of the wages spectrum that imm/igration is having the most effect ..

are you saying this is not true??

personally i stated to you that my wages have, relative to average wages, gone down c.20% over c15 years( and have gone down probably 50% compared to london wages and more re cost of living)

this, i and my colleagues, put down to CCT/outsourcing etc but also that this process , without what the guardian refers to an open door policy, would NOT Have been possible.

You read an article in the Guardian and implied that it confirmed what you have all along been saying that wages were being cut and this was all down to immigration. I pointed out that your comments were misleading and you accepted my correction.

What do you do as a job like?

 

[durruti02]

You read an article in the Guardian and implied that it confirmed what you have all along been saying that wages were being cut and this was all down to immigration. I pointed out that your comments were misleading and you accepted my correction.

no i accepted your corection of my header .. not of the basic arguement

i also ( jesus you are a wind up .. do you never read wht other people write ) have never stated that im/migration is the sole cause of anything but that it is a key component in neo liberal economics ..

there is much anecdotal evidence from peole on here about wages at the bottom end, which was sustantiated by the statemenst of numerous rightwingers about hpow good immigation is been for cheap labour which is now being backed up by written economic data

i am a estates maintenance worker for a local authority .. and have been for many years .. wages have gone down on most manual jobs for years now her and at akl otgher LAs .. and this process could not have happenned without the ability of the bosses to bring in people who are prepared to work at wage rates the older staff are not

 

[audiotech]

no i accepted your corection of my header .. not of the basic arguement

i also ( jesus you are a wind up .. do you never read wht other people write ) have never stated that im/migration is the sole cause of anything but that it is a key component in neo liberal economics ..

there is much anecdotal evidence from peole on here about wages at the bottom end, which was sustantiated by the statemenst of numerous rightwingers about hpow good immigation is been for cheap labour which is now being backed up by written economic data

i am a estates maintenance worker for a local authority .. and have been for many years .. wages have gone down on most manual jobs for years now her and at akl otgher LAs .. and this process could not have happenned without the ability of the bosses to bring in people who are prepared to work at wage rates the older staff are not

I alway's read what people write - particularly you - before replying. You see, I think it is important to challenge misleading statements which are posted as a way to bolster a dubious argument.

This is a classic example of what I mean:

OECD says immigration pushes wages down

Fairly obvious to most of us now but more proof for the doubters..

Now, you say you accepted the correction of the header, but I note you still cling on to the belief that your "basic argument" based on that header is still sound, despite what's actually written in the article. Btw, immigration is not a "key component in neo liberal economics" - privatisation is.

I would be interested in the "written economic data" you refer to, so as to confirm the anecdotal evidence you mention.

Are you on the books as an estates maintenance worker, or are you a sub-contractor? I say this because where I am most of these jobs, which were once direct labour have now been sourced out to private companies, who no doubt do not have as good conditions and wage levels as those directly employed by local authorities. But this isn't down to immigrants is it? But rather the consequences of the privatisation of services.

 

[tollbar]

The importence of the BNP is not in how many or few seats they win the threat of them taking power is at the current time negligable, but in by doing so they become a major factor in forcing the Labour party to triangulate to the right. One only has to look at the public statements and policies adopted by the Labour party since the BNP started winning seats about 5 years ago to see the effect in action. Its instructive in particular to follow the rightward shift of Labour MPs in areas of the north where the BNP are gaining ground.

 

[joevsimp]

take a look at Harold Hill in Havering and you will see while IWCA had a branch out there they did incredibly well in local elections .. and what is interesting is after that branch collapsed the BNP moved in and i think got elected ..

they did indeed, Gooshays ward, 2002 IWCA got about 700 per candidate, bout 200 short of labour and in 2006, the BNP get one guy in on about 1000

 

[durruti02]

Are you on the books as an estates maintenance worker, or are you a sub-contractor? I say this because where I am most of these jobs, which were once direct labour have now been sourced out to private companies, who no doubt do not have as good conditions and wage levels as those directly employed by local authorities. But this isn't down to immigrants is it? But rather the consequences of the privatisation of services.

apologies for rushed answer but

do you not see that in the last few years privatisation and that process is NOT possible without immigration .. this has been precisely my arguemnet all along .. cos teh indiginous w/c will not do the jobs at teh rates teh cowboys want .. that was our weapon .. immigration takes it away ..

 

[audiotech]

apologies for rushed answer but

do you not see that in the last few years privatisation and that process is NOT possible without immigration .. this has been precisely my arguemnet all along .. cos teh indiginous w/c will not do the jobs at teh rates teh cowboys want .. that was our weapon .. immigration takes it away ..

The 'weapon' was and is union organisation of workers.

 

[JimPage]

and to continue to focus peoples thoughts- 3 BNP results from Thursday 7th December........

Conwy Kinmel Bay Ward- 13.2% beating Liberals
Horsham Denne Ward- 12.7% beating Labour
Southend West Shoebury - 17.9%, 2nd place- beating Labour and Liberal

 

[JimPage]

The importence of the BNP is not in how many or few seats they win the threat of them taking power is at the current time negligable, but in by doing so they become a major factor in forcing the Labour party to triangulate to the right. One only has to look at the public statements and policies adopted by the Labour party since the BNP started winning seats about 5 years ago to see the effect in action. Its instructive in particular to follow the rightward shift of Labour MPs in areas of the north where the BNP are gaining ground.

a very valid point. there are things being said by Labour which woud have been condemned as BNP propoganda. They are getting their agenda hijacked by mainstreams politicians- but this time, rather than subverting the BNP support- their vote seesm to be going up as a result

 

[treelover]

Of course, outsourcing, privatisation has had an impact on wage levels particularly in the manual sector, but surely they couldn't pay the wages they do if there wasn't a constant supply of 'willing labour' ready to take the jobs at these lower wages?, I think you are blind to what is happening MC5, seeing what you want to see.

Are you on the books as an estates maintenance worker, or are you a sub-contractor? I say this because where I am most of these jobs, which were once direct labour have now been sourced out to private companies, who no doubt do not have as good conditions and wage levels as those directly employed by local authorities. But this isn't down to immigrants is it? But rather the consequences of the privatisation of services.
Reply With Quote

 

[durruti02]

The 'weapon' was and is union organisation of workers.

as treelover says , you are ignoring the process .. think on it .. what you say above makes no sense to my post

 

[audiotech]

as treelover says , you are ignoring the process .. think on it .. what you say above makes no sense to my post

Not at all. I said that direct labour had been sourced out to private companies, who no doubt do not have as good conditions and wage levels as those directly employed by local authorities and that this was a consequence of the privatisation of services and not immigration. Now, this makes more sense than the reactionary outpourings from your good self and treelover.

 

[durruti02]

Not at all. I said that direct labour had been sourced out to private companies, who no doubt do not have as good conditions and wage levels as those directly employed by local authorities and that this was a consequence of the privatisation of services and not immigration. Now, this makes more sense than the reactionary outpourings from your good self and treelover.

but how would they have done it without immigration? as you and others have noted indiginous folk do not want to work for shit wages

 

[nwnm]

like fuck they don't. Go to somwhere that the mines all closed and tell 'em that. I suppose the 'indigenous' <whatever that means> population don't do drugs either. Perhaps you can explain to me why there are so many people doing skag in the welsh valleys in fomer pit villages, and why those that are working are doing so on the cheap. The reason they do so is the result of a successful ruling class offensive some years ago. Get your head out of your arse before you die of methane poisoning

 

[audiotech]

but how would they have done it without immigration? as you and others have noted indiginous folk do not want to work for shit wages

Life is a struggle for anyone surviving on the minimum wage and wage rates below that figure.

Immigration wasn't even an issue with regards to privatisation. as most of the privatisations of council services was a well thought out plan and put into practice many moons ago.

 

[zion]

post deleted

 

[durruti02]

like fuck they don't. Go to somwhere that the mines all closed and tell 'em that. I suppose the 'indigenous' <whatever that means> population don't do drugs either. Perhaps you can explain to me why there are so many people doing skag in the welsh valleys in fomer pit villages, and why those that are working are doing so on the cheap. The reason they do so is the result of a successful ruling class offensive some years ago. Get your head out of your arse before you die of methane poisoning

sorry??? wtf are you on about???

so what are all the poles doing in south wales?? doing work that the money for is SO shit that locals won't take it .. no?

you think i don't know about this ruling class offensive??? .. grow up ..

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0300...ers-exploiting-polish-in-wales-name_page.html

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...ers-take-jobs-welsh-don-t-want-name_page.html

 

[durruti02]

Life is a struggle for anyone surviving on the minimum wage and wage rates below that figure.

Immigration wasn't even an issue with regards to privatisation. as most of the privatisations of council services was a well thought out plan and put into practice many moons ago.

jesus boy i'm beginning to think you know absolutely nought about what you spout. you ever tried to organise strikes where everyone knows you are totally surplus and can be replaced at the drop of the hat??

of course privatisation started before this wave of mmigration ..( p.s.i know a fck sight more about it than you ever will) .. what i have always said is this current phase could NOT exist /continue without the open borders for the bosses to import cheap labour that we have

 

[audiotech]

jesus boy i'm beginning to think you know absolutely nought about what you spout. you ever tried to organise strikes where everyone knows you are totally surplus and can be replaced at the drop of the hat??

of course privatisation started before this wave of mmigration ..( p.s.i know a fck sight more about it than you ever will) .. what i have always said is this current phase could NOT exist /continue without the open borders for the bosses to import cheap labour that we have

As for your first point, yes I have organised strikes in somewhat difficult cicumstances. I've also instigated union representation in workplaces with no union - an even tougher task some would say.

As for your assertion that you "...know a fck sight more about it than I ever will"? That is debatable, but I'll hazard a guess that you don't.

So, your saying now that this "current phase" could not (in capitals ) exist/continue without open borders and this makes it possible to import cheap labour yes?

Well, I thought we were discussing privatisation? Nevermind, to get back to your ramblings. It would seem that you believe open borders exist now and that leads to cheap labour!! You've got me, I'm totally baffled by your amazing intellect (I would think everyone else is too )

 

[durruti02]

As for your first point, yes I have organised strikes in somewhat difficult cicumstances. I've also instigated union representation in workplaces with no union - an even tougher task some would say.

As for your assertion that you "...know a fck sight more about it than I ever will"? That is debatable, but I'll hazard a guess that you don't.

So, your saying now that this "current phase" could not (in capitals ) exist/continue without open borders and this makes it possible to import cheap labour yes?

Well, I thought we were discussing privatisation? Nevermind, to get back to your ramblings. It would seem that you believe open borders exist now and that leads to cheap labour!! You've got me, I'm totally baffled by your amazing intellect (I would think everyone else is too )

so you are another one who does not understand that open borders for the bosses sits side by side with controls on immirgrants

so you do not believe that for the bosses there are open borders??? they seem happy to call it that

"instigated union representation" .. thats a funny phrase .. did you work for a union ? i organised a union in a couple of places where they was none before many years ago .. is this the same thing??

p.s.s you can hazard all the guesses you like .. i know you are wrong mate you are saying all the wrong things

 

[nwnm]

btw the majority of poles in S Wales are now over 70 - presumably they are driving pensions down as opposed to the government

 

[audiotech]

so you are another one who does not understand that open borders for the bosses sits side by side with controls on immirgrants

so you do not believe that for the bosses there are open borders??? they seem happy to call it that

"instigated union representation" .. thats a funny phrase .. did you work for a union ? i organised a union in a couple of places where they was none before many years ago .. is this the same thing??

p.s.s you can hazard all the guesses you like .. i know you are wrong mate you are saying all the wrong things

open borders for the bosses sits side by side with controls on immirgrants

I've noticed the many immigration controls introduced, but little in the way of "open borders". I know that certain tribesmen of Afghanistan don't recognise borders of any kind, but you'll find many states do.

What's "funny" about having "instigated union representation"? I did try to organise a union where there wasn't one before and was sacked. I have never worked for a union.

 

[durruti02]

btw the majority of poles in S Wales are now over 70 - presumably they are driving pensions down as opposed to the government

am a bit tinopolicentric!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5378298.stm