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Sara Sharif murder: ‘sadist’ father and stepmother jailed for life

Lotte said:
Before anyone has a go, I'm not saying I feel sorry for Sharif's dad. I'm just wary of making these guys out to be heroes because of the prisoner who murdered a paedophile and was praised for it...and he himself was in jail for raping and murdering an old woman.
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I understand what you meant, don't worry! My reply to you was meant in full agreement.
 
Lotte said:
Before anyone has a go, I'm not saying I feel sorry for Sharif's dad. I'm just wary of making these guys out to be heroes because of the prisoner who murdered a paedophile and was praised for it...and he himself was in jail for raping and murdering an old woman.
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Agree, nothing heroic here, just mindless, pointless violence on the part of whoever did this.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
I kinda find it strange how some people think execution is terrible, but a lifetime in jail - and even having to endure brutalisation, fear and violence therein - is desirable. My intuitions are the other way. I think it’s imperative that prisons are as humane as possible, even for the worst criminals. The thought of executing sadist killers on the other hand doesn’t seem that bad to me, at least in a vacuum.
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I feel more or less the same about the worst kind of scumbag murderers (child killers, sadistic serial killers etc), that they've forfeited the right to share life with the rest of us.

But I couldn't support the reintroduction of capital punishment because there've been so many miscarriages of justice. I believe the judge in the Guildford Four trial said, when he sentenced them, something like "life imprisonment is the only option available to me", making it clear that he would have had them hanged if he could...

On the question of whether life imprisonment without parole is worse than execution, I got that impression after reading extracts from Ian Brady's 'autobiography' - for a prisoner who can't go into general population for their own safety and has to watch their back all the time, it sounded like a living nightmare (and rightly so). Oddly, Myra Hindley was allowed to circulate among the other women cons and (although she was attacked a few times) was able to have an affair with a screw, record songs, study, and was taken out for a nice walk on Hampstead Heath by a no doubt well-meaning governor. Personally I think she hoodwinked a lot of people, not just Lord Longford.
 
scalyboy said:
I feel more or less the same about the worst kind of scumbag murderers (child killers, sadistic serial killers etc), that they've forfeited the right to share life with the rest of us.

But I couldn't support the reintroduction of capital punishment because there've been so many miscarriages of justice. I believe the judge in the Guildford Four trial said, when he sentenced them, something like "life imprisonment is the only option available to me", making it clear that he would have had them hanged if he could...

On the question of whether life imprisonment without parole is worse than execution, I got that impression after reading extracts from Ian Brady's 'autobiography' - for a prisoner who can't go into general population for their own safety and has to watch their back all the time, it sounded like a living nightmare (and rightly so). Oddly, Myra Hindley was allowed to circulate among the other women cons and (although she was attacked a few times) was able to have an affair with a screw, record songs, study, and was taken out for a nice walk on Hampstead Heath by a no doubt well-meaning governor. Personally I think she hoodwinked a lot of people, not just Lord Longford.
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What Spymaster was suggesting up thread was something like a guilty+ verdict something where there was no doubt at all over their guilt and only in those cases would the death penalty be an option. I disagree with him that such a system is possible, I don't think any system could be perfect. But I guess there is a thought experiment here. If it was possible to be 100% sure, are there crimes where they death penalty would be justified? Assuming a world otherwise like our own.

For me, I would still say no, there is something that feels fundamentally wrong to me about executing someone who is completely in your control and essentially rended powerless. Having said that I don't think I would oppose a system that gave them the choice. You can either be locked up for the rest or your life or you can be put to death now, your choice?

Of course what I actually want is a root and branch transformation of the While system and wider society to render the While question unnecessary.
 
emanymton said:
What Spymaster was suggesting up thread was something like a guilty+ verdict something where there was no doubt at all over their guilt and only in those cases would the death penalty be an option. I disagree with him that such a system is possible, I don't think any system could be perfect. But I guess there is a thought experiment here. If it was possible to be 100% sure, are there crimes where they death penalty would be justified? Assuming a world otherwise like our own.

For me, I would still say no, there is something that feels fundamentally wrong to me about executing someone who is completely in your control and essentially rended powerless. Having said that I don't think I would oppose a system that gave them the choice. You can either be locked up for the rest or your life or you can be put to death now, your choice?

Of course what I actually want is a root and branch transformation of the While system and wider society to render the While question unnecessary.
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IN the theoretical scenario of 100% surety, I'd still have quarms about giving the state the right to execute an individual. But I can't quite articulate why. Along the lines of, it changes the relationship between state and individual, or otherwise makes it explicit, that you are a subordinate entity to the state.

Also assumes there would be no mission creep in which crimes would warrent the death penalty. There will be some who would want it for the likes of Luigi Mangione <<insert that latin phrase re to discourage others taking similar actions> Which might otherwise threaten to destabilise our economic system, thus harming society. People thinking like that tend to be nearer the levers of power.


Not that I disagree with the sentiment some people should be binned, expunged, thrown in the sea. I'm not gonna weep if a few prison guards turn a blind eye when filth like this get attacked either of course.
 
emanymton said:
What Spymaster was suggesting up thread was something like a guilty+ verdict something where there was no doubt at all over their guilt and only in those cases would the death penalty be an option. I disagree with him that such a system is possible, I don't think any system could be perfect. But I guess there is a thought experiment here. If it was possible to be 100% sure, are there crimes where they death penalty would be justified? Assuming a world otherwise like our own.
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Yes the application of the death penalty at Nuremberg and other similar trials was absolutely justified and was the only way to guarantee the removal of some extremely dangerous individuals. The necessity is more clear when you see what happened to those who weren't executed, many were released early after a few years when it became politically expedient. And even if lifetime in prison could be guaranteed, I'm sure someone like Goring could still have a malevolent influence.

These conditions don't apply to the vast majority of ordinary prisoners even those who have committed horrific crimes. And the standard of proof is already beyond reasonable doubt/being sure, yet miscarriages happen. If a jury said they were sure of guilt but not sure enough for the death penalty, that would already be an admission that there is not enough evidence to lock someone up for the rest of their life.
 
Combustible said:
Yes the application of the death penalty at Nuremberg and other similar trials was absolutely justified and was the only way to guarantee the removal of some extremely dangerous individuals. The necessity is more clear when you see what happened to those who weren't executed, many were released early after a few years when it became politically expedient. And even if lifetime in prison could be guaranteed, I'm sure someone like Goring could still have a malevolent influence.

These conditions don't apply to the vast majority of ordinary prisoners even those who have committed horrific crimes. And the standard of proof is already beyond reasonable doubt/being sure, yet miscarriages happen. If a jury said they were sure of guilt but not sure enough for the death penalty, that would already be an admission that there is not enough evidence to lock someone up for the rest of their life.
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I don't want to speak for Spy but he seems to have a whole plan worked out, part of which would be there having to be a unanimous jury verdict or a guilty plea. There would be other conditions as well so basically guilt would be established beyond doubt, rather than just reasonable doubt.

But I don't believe any system could achieve that so.
 
emanymton said:
I don't want to speak for Spy but he seems to have a whole plan worked out, part of which would be there having to be a unanimous jury verdict or a guilty plea. There would be other conditions as well so basically guilt would be established beyond doubt, rather than just reasonable doubt.

But I don't believe any system could achieve that so.
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I have advised Spymaster previously that he should write to the Home Office and Ministry of Justice about his commonsense views on the UK's criminal justice system and also to the National College of Policing. Without wanting to sound harsh I feel he is wasting his time with the majority of posters on here and should prioritise lobbying those with influence and an appetite for justice.

Also might want to drop Keir Starmer a line and see if he is interested in turning around these polls.
 
The39thStep said:
I have advised Spymaster previously that he should write to the Home Office and Ministry of Justice about his commonsense views on the UK's criminal justice system and also to the National College of Policing. Without wanting to sound harsh I feel he is wasting his time with the majority of posters on here and should prioritise lobbying those with influence and an appetite for justice.

Also might want to drop Keir Starmer a line and see if he is interested in turning around these polls.
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As I've told you before, it's not something that I feel strongly enough about to take any further than educating you lot.

In this respect I've taken a leaf from the Inconsequential Lefties Handbook, and stick to howling at the moon on the internet ;)
 
Hmm.

I have been on Urban a few years now and never ignored any poster or any thread, until this one, the subject just made me so angry that each time I saw the thread surface I got angry again. In the end I decided for my own wellbeing to ignore the thread which I did until earlier when I thought it might be safe to clear the ignore.

As you were.

:) :(
 
I prefer the set up at ADX Florence. No death penalty, I have long felt it is wrong to ask others to kill in cold blood, the history of executioners is a litany of mental breakdowns followed by alcoholic deaths.

Whilst hearing this scumbag got a pasting and will be watching his back forever was quite nice, as Mr Singh right points out, the people who done it are just as scummy and also have no place in society.

ADX Florence keeps the inmates safe from other inmates (they never meet anyone else), they have a very hard time topping themselves, the punishment is extreme, almost like an oubliette, it is designed to break the mind, I'm cool with that.
 
Just on the death penalty, there are plenty of people who I wouldn't shed a tear over or feel that they deserve it. But when someone got hung, I wouldn't get a sense that the world was now a better place. Just a feeling that another awful thing had been done. Just another shitty thing, quite disconnected from the original crime. And that's in addition to all the other obvious objections to the death penalty.

It's not a liberal or humanitarian objection, it's more something existential. Somebody was kept in a cell for a long time, had loads of appeals, then the state went into the rituals of the execution itself. Despair followed by death.
 
Petcha said:
Why do people on this site always excuse themselves for quoting mainstream media outlets? it's so stupid... is there a list somewhere of approved outlets?

often those papers get the scoop way before the broadsheets even have it on their radar.
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It’s not so much the mainstream outlets that get condemned . Shedloads of links for the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Independent, the BBC etc. *

With qualifiers, even the Express and the Mail and the Sun get links.


It’s the shitty politics that makes certain outlets problematic.

The Express is mainly scaremongering about the weather and posting up endless controversies about the royals.

The Mail is hated because of its far right middle class snotty disdain for w/c people. Posting links leads to clicks, which earns them money. If Urban (used to) maintains an attitude of not supporting the machine, then not posting links to the DM is (was) in keeping with the general consensus of this place.

The Sun is a shit rag. The boycott that followed Hillsborough still holds sway in Merseyside (although it’s starting to change now). Solidarity for the Hillsborough victims and general disgust about how The Sun responded to the disaster led to many others joining the boycott. This place generally respected that boycott. To some extent still does.


Urban has changed, a lot. Things that were part of the bedrock attitude and mood here in can longer taken for granted. That’s alright, things change. We’ve got new people on here and god knows we needed that. But as always happens when new folk join an existing community, there will be standing traditions and attitudes that look weird anachronistic or foolish to the new people. And often those traditions are misunderstood or misinterpreted by the new people. That’s alright too.

The thing that annoys me, on here and IRL, is the assumption that the old ways are stupid or thoughtless or pointless. Sometimes people are curious about what went before, sometimes dismissive. Personally, I try to understand what prompted the old tradition before condemning it.



*
There has always been discussion about the merits or otherwise of all the msm. Most of them get torn to pieces. One of the things I’ve always valued highly about this place is that I can get a range of views about a single event immediately. People will jump on here to announce a current event and people quickly post links to many different sources. Coverage is less comprehensive than it used to be, but we’re still good at citing sources rather than grinding out the rumours.

And part of that, as with any good quality literature search, is to critique the source, not just quote it. So noting that “this is from the DM” immediately alerts that it’s a RW source that tends to view things from a certain perspective; apologising for it being from The Sun gives a shorthand message that it might be a scoop, but may be sensationalised.




(I remember the looting riots in 2021 when this place was coveting it live, including from the front line. There was no better source than here. Same with the student riots in 2010, and many other events. The next day stories from the Sun and the DM were included, not ignored; they were qualified with apologies for linking to RW sources. I don’t have any problem with that.)
 
story said:
It’s not so much the mainstream outlets that get condemned . Shedloads of links for the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Independent, the BBC etc. *

With qualifiers, even the Express and the Mail and the Sun get links.


It’s the shitty politics that makes certain outlets problematic.

The Express is mainly scaremongering about the weather and posting up endless controversies about the royals.

The Mail is hated because of its far right middle class snotty disdain for w/c people. Posting links leads to clicks, which earns them money. If Urban (used to) maintains an attitude of not supporting the machine, then not posting links to the DM is (was) in keeping with the general consensus of this place.

The Sun is a shit rag. The boycott that followed Hillsborough still holds sway in Merseyside (although it’s starting to change now). Solidarity for the Hillsborough victims and general disgust about how The Sun responded to the disaster led to many others joining the boycott. This place generally respected that boycott. To some extent still does.


Urban has changed, a lot. Things that were part of the bedrock attitude and mood here in can longer taken for granted. That’s alright, things change. We’ve got new people on here and god knows we needed that. But as always happens when new folk join an existing community, there will be standing traditions and attitudes that look weird anachronistic or foolish to the new people. And often those traditions are misunderstood or misinterpreted by the new people. That’s alright too.

The thing that annoys me, on here and IRL, is the assumption that the old ways are stupid or thoughtless or pointless. Sometimes people are curious about what went before, sometimes dismissive. Personally, I try to understand what prompted the old tradition before condemning it.



*
There has always been discussion about the merits or otherwise of all the msm. Most of them get torn to pieces. One of the things I’ve always valued highly about this place is that I can get a range of views about a single event immediately. People will jump on here to announce a current event and people quickly post links to many different sources. Coverage is less comprehensive than it used to be, but we’re still good at citing sources rather than grinding out the rumours.

And part of that, as with any good quality literature search, is to critique the source, not just quote it. So noting that “this is from the DM” immediately alerts that it’s a RW source that tends to view things from a certain perspective; apologising for it being from The Sun gives a shorthand message that it might be a scoop, but may be sensationalised.




(I remember the looting riots in 2021 when this place was coveting it live, including from the front line. There was no better source than here. Same with the student riots in 2010 and many other events. The next day stores from the Sun and the DM were included, not ignored; they were qualified with apologies for linking to RW sources. I don’t have any problem with that.)
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Most of the broadsheets are behind paywalls. And yeh, are often very slow on breaking news. The tabs just go all in.

I don't, and won't read the Sun. But I did use to work on papers doing design and it was always said they actually had some of the best journos, they could afford them. As for the Mail - it has the highest circulation in the country. Like it or not. You'd be a fool to ignore it and instead keep your focus on the lifestyle section of the Guardian. The reaction on this site to anyone posting a link to the Mail is bordering on comical.
 
Petcha said:
Most of the broadsheets are behind paywalls. And yeh, are often very slow on breaking news. The tabs just go all in.

I don't, and won't read the Sun. But I did use to work on papers doing design and it was always said they actually had some of the best journos, they could afford them. As for the Mail - it has the highest circulation in the country. Like it or not. You'd be a fool to ignore it and instead keep your focus on the lifestyle section of the Guardian. The reaction on this site to anyone posting a link to the Mail is bordering on comical.
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No one is ignoring any of it.
Of course the DM is taken into account when politics etc are being discussed. Would be mad to ignore it.

Weird insult you’ve dealt me there re: lifestyle section. I’m so hurt!

Apologies for RW links is just one of the quirks that has become habit here. It all started before the paywall thing.

Plenty of journos on here so on the whole we know how it all works. Common knowledge that the red tops hang onto the good writers ( also that some of the good writers tend to undermine their integrity in order to keep getting the sweet sweet meat they get given in return.
 
Petcha said:
Most of the broadsheets are behind paywalls. And yeh, are often very slow on breaking news. The tabs just go all in.

I don't, and won't read the Sun. But I did use to work on papers doing design and it was always said they actually had some of the best journos, they could afford them. As for the Mail - it has the highest circulation in the country. Like it or not. You'd be a fool to ignore it and instead keep your focus on the lifestyle section of the Guardian. The reaction on this site to anyone posting a link to the Mail is bordering on comical.
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Indeed.

The whole "excuse the Daily Mail link" or the utterly bizarre "link broken" (followed by the link with a gap in it :D ) is one of the most ridiculous traditions we've ever had here.

If the source is so toxic that you need to excuse it, don't fucking quote it, you pill heads!
 
weltweit said:
This is the kind of case I would be happy for the death penalty to apply for.
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Im honestly surprised they managed to get a murder verdict for this horrible pair tbh. I was expecting manslaughter. Yes they were guilty of terrible child abuse but I don't believe they actually planned to kill her... although im no legal expert and for sure under UK law it can be shown that their behaviour did constitute that.

The baying tabloid brigade will want this pair strung up but frankly even if capital punishment was reintroduced it would 100% be used against 'enemies of the state' first and foremost. Terrorists and traitors. And then serial killers or people who have killed numerous people. So chances are childmurdering scumbags would still be serving 'life' sentences in prison just the same anyway. But it would be used in dangerous and unpredictable ways just as it is in the US, Iran, China etc etc.

With this in mind, I personally think this cunt getting slashed half to death with a tuna tin every year or two is probably as good a result as we can have it. :thumbs:
 
Spymaster said:
Indeed.

The whole "excuse the Daily Mail link" or the utterly bizarre "link broken" (followed by the link with a gap in it :D ) is one of the most ridiculous traditions we've ever had here.

If the source is so toxic that you need to excuse it, don't fucking quote it, you pill heads!
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I like it. It’s etiquette. Like holding a chair out for my auntie when she sits down to eat. Outdated, outmoded, but still meaningful in an old fashioned way.

Not expecting anyone else to do it and I don’t give a shit if anyone else does/doesn’t do it.
 
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