Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead

[Teaboy]

You can, I think my posts all over on the Ukraine thread give you the general idea.

Well I've seen your ones on Eastern Ukraine but the Crimea was so long ago and recently Putin's been telling anyone who will listen that he ordered the invasion of the Crimea, so I can only assume that you never accepted the Crimea as being part of Ukraine, is that correct?

 

[Pickman's model]

You can, I think my posts all over on the Ukraine thread give you the general idea.

if you can't summarise it in a couple of sentences here it's not an argument worth presenting.

 

[camouflage]

Well I've seen your ones on Eastern Ukraine but the Crimea was so long ago and recently Putin's been telling anyone who will listen that he ordered the invasion of the Crimea, so I can only assume that you never accepted the Crimea as being part of Ukraine, is that correct?

Can you link to an example of Putin telling anyone who will listen that he ordered the invasion of Crimea?

I consider what happened in Crimea a Secession, it was a part of Ukraine but now it's a part of Russia. I don't consider this transition to have occurred by means of an invasion. The Polite Men in Green (already stationed in Crimea as per agreement with Ukraine around the Russian naval base there) taking up positions did prevent what could have been a blood-bath, imagine if they hadn't secured Crimea from the gun-men heading down from the capital, if those gunmen had started attacking Crimean Russians as they did the Donbass Russians (well, Donbass's 'Russian' Ukrainians rather) that would have been a very dangerous situation. Blah Blah Something Something The West can turn a blind eye to the shelling of Donbass civilian areas and the use of fascist battalions etc, but you couldn't have that sort of shit going on around a major military base with no overt military response, it just couldn't happen. The safety of the base itself would be in question and if the US tells you it would act any different where one of it's major bases in another territory facing a similar scenario- you'd know they're lying. Some sort of response to secure the considerable base and associated facilities there (including the residences of officers and troops where the families of base personnel would have been in the firing line). A lack of any response by the Russian forces in Crimea in the face of what was occurring would have been untenable. In think national governments and brass know this across the board, they just wont talk that way in front of us children, they'll happily leave us to believe in unicorns and fairies instead as evidenced by our 'media'.

What's really controversial in this Crimea thing isn't the Polite Men in Green and their road-blocks, it's the referendum that took place afterwards in which Crimea joined Russia. If they'd just left it at securing the base that could have been or led to something else entirely, still not an invasion but for instance under a Medledev government (Blah Blah Something Something The West like Medledev) you could imagine the situation being legitimized via the UN for instance, with the Russian troops there becoming Peace-keepers really. In my opinion though this whole Ukraine thing wouldn't have happened under a Medledev government. The West doesn't like Putin because he's a too pro-Russian (this radical belief-system he's into that Russia has it's own interest etc, or that time he temporarily cock-blocked US intervention in Syria).

Russia took a big risk with Crimea, if it hadn't been a popular idea among the Crimeans themselves it would be like catching a hot potato with hands covered in glue before you have an idea of exactly how hot this hot potato is. Crimea could certainly have turned out to be an ugly Bear Trap (as East Ukraine is supposed to be).

Anyway, happily for the Crimeans they have avoided the same fate as the people in the Donbass, shelled and terrorized for months by the forces of the regime in Kiev while Porky boasts of how their children will hide in basements. In Kosovo there wasn't even a referendum actually.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you link to an example of Putin telling anyone who will listen that he ordered the invasion of Crimea?

I consider what happened in Crimea a Secession, it was a part of Ukraine but now it's a part of Russia. I don't consider this transition to have occurred by means of an invasion. The Polite Men in Green (already stationed in Crimea as per agreement with Ukraine around the Russian naval base there) taking up positions did prevent what could have been a blood-bath, imagine if they hadn't secured Crimea from the gun-men heading down from the capital, if those gunmen had started attacking Crimean Russians as they did the Donbass Russians (well, Donbass's 'Russian' Ukrainians rather) that would have been a very dangerous situation. Blah Blah Something Something The West can turn a blind eye to the shelling of Donbass civilian areas and the use of fascist battalions etc, but you couldn't have that sort of shit going on around a major military base with no overt military response, it just couldn't happen. The safety of the base itself would be in question and if the US tells you it would act any different where one of it's major bases in another territory facing a similar scenario- you'd know they're lying. Some sort of response to secure the considerable base and associated facilities there (including the residences of officers and troops where the families of base personnel would have been in the firing line). A lack of any response by the Russian forces in Crimea in the face of what was occurring would have been untenable. In think national governments and brass know this across the board, they just wont talk that way in front of us children, they'll happily leave us to believe in unicorns and fairies instead as evidenced by our 'media'.

What's really controversial in this Crimea thing isn't the Polite Men in Green and their road-blocks, it's the referendum that took place afterwards in which Crimea joined Russia. If they'd just left it at securing the base that could have been or led to something else entirely, still not an invasion but for instance under a Medledev government (Blah Blah Something Something The West like Medledev) you could imagine the situation being legitimized via the UN for instance, with the Russian troops there becoming Peace-keepers really. In my opinion though this whole Ukraine thing wouldn't have happened under a Medledev government. The West doesn't like Putin because he's a too pro-Russian (this radical belief-system he's into that Russia has it's own interest etc, or that time he temporarily cock-blocked US intervention in Syria).

Russia took a big risk with Crimea, if it hadn't been a popular idea among the Crimeans themselves it would be like catching a hot potato with hands covered in glue before you have an idea of exactly how hot this hot potato is. Crimea could certainly have turned out to be an ugly Bear Trap (as East Ukraine is supposed to be).

Anyway, happily for the Crimeans they have avoided the same fate as the people in the Donbass, shelled and terrorized for months by the forces of the regime ion Kiev while Porky boasts of how their children will hide in basements. In Kosovo there wasn't even a referendum actually.

so what you're saying is that as the troops already there it was not an invasion.

have you ever considered becoming a chartered pedant?

 

[camouflage]

so what you're saying is that as the troops already there it was not an invasion.

have you ever considered becoming a chartered pedant?

The troops leaving their bases isn't what made it an invasion, you'd be correct to call it an intervention, my opinion is that a major base like that wouldn't have been able to not intervene in the surrounding situation. As said, the controversy isn't because there was some sort of military operation to seize Crimea by another state (eta: I wouldn't describe what the Russians did that way), the controversy is because a referendum was carried out that changed the status of Crimea from being part of the Ukraine to being part of Russia. If that had not happened, the base would still have had to intervene in the surrounding situation at some point. If it had been a British naval base there the same thing would have occurred, it wouldn't be described as an invasion though. With Russia it's being called (by some anyway) an invasion because they don't like what happened next.

 

[butchersapron]

If someone says they didn't do something then they didn't. Isn't history and politics easy?

 

[Pickman's model]

The troops leaving their bases isn't what made it an invasion, you'd be correct to call it an intervention, my opinion is that a major base like that wouldn't have been able to not intervene in the surrounding situation. As said, the controversy isn't because there was some sort of military operation to seize Crimea, the controversy is because a referendum was carried out that changed the status of Crimea from being part of the Ukraine to being part of Russia. If that had not happened, the base would still have had to intervene in the surrounding situation at some point. If it had been a British naval base there the same thing would have occurred, it wouldn't be described as an invasion though. With Russia it's being called (by some anyway) an invasion because they don't like what happened next.

as i say, you've staked a claim to be one of urban's foremost pedants with this, if not the foremost. i doff my cap to a master pedant.

 

[camouflage]

If someone says they didn't do something then they didn't. Isn't history and politics easy?

View attachment 68648

There ya go. Happy?

Was going to use that other Time magezine Putin Hitler image, or the Economists Pariah version, but stumbled on the above and thought it more interesting. I think of it as Crimedetanland Putin in honor of your own reference.

 

[seventh bullet]

Yeah, we musn't forget Russian Nazis.

 

[butchersapron]

There ya go. Happy?

Was going to use that other Time magezine Putin Hitler image, or the Economists Pariah version, but stumbled on the above and thought it more interesting. I think of it as Crimedetanland Putin in honor of your own reference.

Jesus christ, i try and make a point about your ridiculous laughable methodology (if someone i like says something then it's true) and this is the response.

I think the internet is partly to blame for people like you.

 

[camouflage]

Jesus christ, i try and make a point about your ridiculous laughable methodology (if someone i like says something then it's true) and this is the response.

I think the internet is partly to blame for people like you.

If that's what you think I was saying then I think you've misunderstood me.

I do think quite highly of Putin as a statesman, maybe because I bother to watch and listen closely to his speeches and Q&A sessions and as closely as I can see how that matches with what information is available in terms of what he actually does. I try not to be too pro-Putin though (rather trying to be pro-the civilian populations being attacked in any given situation). I mean the guy used to run spies for chrissakes (burglary, blackmail, manipulation, assassination, who knows what else spy-running involves... not to mention the troubling doubts around the Moscow Apartment bombing or the ugly details of the Chechen War and how it was ended).

But it's not because of any of that I have the opinions I do, if anything it's because I also pay close enough attention to what Blah Blah Something Something The West actually says and actually does, as far as can be discovered by the information available (those who claim to speak for us all anyway).

All this is very concerning because essentially even though the French and Germans got a jump on the Americans and Brits with their surprise peace initiative that's actually led to a ceasefire (after some initial frank-exchange-of-views re the status of Debaltsevo), the US is once again able to stuff that effort by parading their crappy high-unit-cost tanks around the Baltics in a blatant attempt to get their pet new Cold-War up to the required speed again an start laying those golden eggs all over the capitals of Europe (a Front Line Market I bet they think of us).

And meanwhile, the common understanding over here (where people are supposed to be on the ball and clued-up and not easily propagandised) is that Putin seeks to rebuild the Russian Empire. People actually take these ideas seriously, Putin is Hitler, next he may try to seize Latvia or Poland, phat columns of invisibility-cloaked Russian tanks invade Ukraine every other fortnight, and Russia is sending Tu-95 Tupolev Bears over to Blighty to intimidate us (no mention of NATO's busy busy buzzing near Russia throughout the inter-Cold-War period, reporting that sort of thing might spoil the idea that's carefully being built up here). Oh, and LGBT people are banned from driving in Russia now. Found to be utter bullshit but don't let that bother you.

It's absolutely terrifying, I worry whether there'll still be a human world in ten years time, people like John McCain are saying things and people in the UK are all like "yeah... John McCain is right you know, we should do stuff in response to what John McCain has just said, taking John McCains ideas as a fair and honest representation of events we should proceed with the solutions laid out by John McCain". Or replace John McCain with Kerry, or Cameron, or Breedlove or any of those other NATO guys and their enablers. Actually maybe you're not far off regarding my 'methodologies', except it's who I don't like that dictates what I don't believe.

Is that so bad though, to refuse the CraZy being sold to me by the same jokers (members of the same Golf Club anyway) that sold us the invasion of Iraq (which I also didn't buy) and still deny that ISIS and all the other shite unleashed from that little adventure has anything to do with them....

fukkit, I need to make myself stop this rant now as I hate it when I do this. I will say though that perhaps I am just wrong and in fact it's you guys who are right, it would actually be preferable to believe Putin is Hitler and Breedlove's mad babblings are actually not mad or babblings but words of remarkable insight, wisdom and truth. It would mean that Blighty is as ever essentially the home of the good guys, freeing the world from tyranny and imperialism, building democracies and resisting Hitlers and preventing the commodification of human beings (a proud and noble British/American tradition that, preventing human beings from commodification). And all under the democratic guiding protective benevolent wing of the US and NATOs benevolent protective democraticly guiding not-an-empireness. That would be nice.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Actually I argue that he hasn't invaded Ukraine at all.

Well not him personally no. Just a number of people who work for him.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I don't think it would be unfortunate if you and your children died

I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that one of my children did attempt to take her own life a couple of weeks ago. No doubt you'd have been "dancing in the streets like we did when that copper got shot" if she'd succeeded.

You really are a stupid cunt, aren't you?