Road pricing back on the agenda

[farmerbarleymow]

Should a district nurse doing 300 miles/week visiting patients in the sticks in a 1 litre Micra, have to pay more than Bahnhof Strasse who does 100 miles/week having jollies and burn-ups in a 340bhp, twin turbo, racing car?

There should be a special category of charges for people who drive without a justifiable cause.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Pushbikes don't need numberplates - it would cause unnecessary aerodynamic drag.

Maybe a RFID chip in the bike then, need to do something if teuchter's vision is to be fulfilled: I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

There should be a special category of charges for people who drive without a justifiable cause.

Thrills is a justifiable cause.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Maybe a RFID chip in the bike then, need to do something if teuchter's vision is to be fulfilled: I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

Nah - restrictions only apply to motor vehicles. Pushbikes have basically zero impact on the environment all things considered - unlike motorists.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Thrills is a justifiable cause.

Increase the fine by 10x in that case - pure selfishness.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Should a district nurse doing 300 miles/week visiting patients in the sticks in a 1 litre Micra, have to pay more than Bahnhof Strasse who does 100 miles/week having jollies and burn-ups in a 340bhp, twin turbo, racing car?

Flat rate with a multiplier based on the cars emissions then...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Nah - restrictions only apply to motor vehicles. Pushbikes have basically zero impact on the environment all things considered - unlike motorists.

The current proposals are nothing to do with the environment, they are a revenue raising measure, so cyclists should be charged more per mile than cars cos they do fewer.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Maybe a RFID chip in the bike then, need to do something if teuchter's vision is to be fulfilled: I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

You ride a bike

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You ride a bike

You ride quad bikes & Harleys too, but drive mobility scooters. I think teuchter needs to clarify if he meant to exempt Hells Angels but include the disabled in his vision for road pricing.

 

[Spymaster]

Flat rate with a multiplier based on the cars emissions then...

How do you know how many miles have been driven by whom?

 

[Pickman's model]

The current proposals are nothing to do with the environment, they are a revenue raising measure, so cyclists should be charged more per mile than cars cos they do fewer.

and those miles they do, they do disproportionately within built-up areas, thus contributing to congestion

 

[Spymaster]

There should be a special category of charges for people who drive without a justifiable cause.

How do you know when someone's driving in a justifiable cause and when someone's driving for shits and giggles?

 

[moochedit]

A lot of petrol stations already use ANPR camaras anyway (might even be all of them?) as do average speed camaras and the camaras used in London for the congestion charge. No idea how long they keep the data for though.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

How do you know when someone's driving in a justifiable cause and when someone's driving for shits and giggles?

If they drive an audi or BMW - automatically guilty as charged.

 

[Pickman's model]

If they drive an audi or BMW - no justifiable cause there.

how right you are

 

[teuchter]

Yes I do, clearly some compromises must be made in order to fund these services and public safety is an important priority but the default position on using a public service should be no publicly available record is kept and wherever possible no record should be kept at all

Right, compromises have to be made in order for services to be functional. In principle, I think people's privacy should be infringed as little as possible, but it shouldn't over-ride everything else. If the technology exists to administrate road pricing without infringing privacy then great (I will read the link Crispy posted above, later) but if it's not possible, then I don't think it should be automatically rule out road pricing. There's loads of stuff that we have already decided that we need some kind of information about what people are doing, and how they are using a service, in order to make the service functional and/or work out how people should pay for it. You couldn't run schools or the health service while respecting an absolute right to privacy. You couldn't tax anyone without making some intrusive enquiries about how much they earn and how they earn it. Or maybe you think we should have kept the poll tax because it would match up with the ideal of collecting the absolute minimum of information about what people are doing?

As far as motoriing is concerned - I'd compare it with what happens with public transport. For now, you can still buy a ticket for a bus or train with cash, a purchase that can't necessarily be traced back to you. But when you get on a bus or a train you actually submit yourself to a kind of contract that means that you can be challenged about whether you've got a ticket, and if there's some dispute about it, you have no automatic right to absolute confidentiality - you'll be asked for details and if you refuse you can potentially end up in a public court.

In fact I'd be much more interested in looking at compromises to privacy that occur on public transport, because that's the mode that excludes the fewest people - where it's available. Private motorists are mostly a privileged subset of the population - they can look after themselves.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Anyway, fuck you peasants and your roads... Skyports readies "world's first" vertiport for eVTOL aircraft

 

[Spymaster]

If they drive an audi or BMW - automatically guilty as charged.

Nah, wouldn't work. Me and Bahnhof would just switch to Skylines and drive them like cunts instead.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Nah, wouldn't work. Me and Bahnhof would just switch to Skylines and drive them like cunts instead.

Down to the salt mines!

 

[kebabking]

Down to the salt mines!

Catch us first....

 

[Pickman's model]

Or maybe you think we should have kept the poll tax because it would match up with the ideal of collecting the absolute minimum of information about what people are doing?

how the ignorant shame themselves

the difference between the poll tax and the council tax (and indeed the former rates) was that the poll tax was levied on everyone over 18 - albeit with some exceptions, eg people in a religious community, students. the council tax by contrast is levied on a property and not on individuals: Start paying Council Tax. you don't register everyone over 18 at a property for the ct.

 

[moochedit]

Not against the idea in principle although it depends on the exact detail like prices per mile and whether petrol duty and car tax would be scrapped or in addition.

I could see it leading to more people cloaning number plates though.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How do you know how many miles have been driven by whom?

Just bill the registered owner, let them deal with anyone they’ve let drive it.

 

[Crispy]

Not against the idea in principle although it depends on the exact detail like prices per mile and whether petrol duty and car tax would be scrapped or in addition.

I could see it leading to more people cloaning number plates though.

It'd have to be done with a device in the car, to accurately track distance travelled, and to maintain privacy.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I guess you could whack a few toll booths on the motorways - it’s probably the easiest place infrastructure wise.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Catch us first....

An unexpected diversion and a sinkhole dropping down thousands of feet to the salty depths of doom.

 

[moochedit]

It'd have to be done with a device in the car, to accurately track distance travelled, and to maintain privacy.

If you mean using gps then surely that would be even less private? If only measuring distance then all cars already have a milometer for that. Could just have it read like your gas meter.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It'd have to be done with a device in the car, to accurately track distance travelled, and to maintain privacy.

Each registered owner reports the milage every 6 months, gets sent a bill. Random checks to ensure compliance. Job done.

 

[Spymaster]

Each registered owner reports the milage every 6 months, gets sent a bill. Random checks to ensure compliance. Job done.

Clock, clock, clock, clock ...

 

[Crispy]

If you mean using gps then surely that would be even less private? If only measuring distance then all cars already have a milometer for that. Could just have it read like your gas meter.

It would use the milometer to track distance driven, and a cryptographically secure radio beacon (as per the paper I linked upthread) to track entrance/exit of the various zones.

Each registered owner reports the milage every 6 months, gets sent a bill. Random checks to ensure compliance. Job done.

Only if you're operating a flat-fare scheme, which would be too much of a slegehammer to be politically possible.