Road pricing back on the agenda

[teuchter]

Treasury ‘looking to road pricing’ as sales of electric cars rise

The move is reportedly being mulled to cover a tax shortfall of £40 billion caused by the rise in popularity of electric cars.

uk.sports.yahoo.com

Motorists could be charged for using Britain’s roads under plans reportedly being considered by Chancellor Rishi Sunak.

The Times reported the move is being mulled to cover a tax shortfall of £40 billion caused by the rise in popularity of electric cars.

According to the report, Mr Sunak is “very interested” in the concept of a national road pricing scheme but it is unclear how the charges would be calculated.

Currently motorists pay 57.95p in fuel duty for each litre of petrol and diesel they buy – a figure which has been frozen since March 2011.

This brings in £28 billion a year, or 1.3% of national income, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, while VAT on fuel and vehicle excise duty also raises money for the Treasury.

I may replace the link with a better article when one becomes available.

Road pricing has always seemed to me a better approach than taxing fuel, because it allows it to be adjusted according to location. So, it can be priced higher in places where there's congestion alongside good public transport alternatives, compared with, for example, rural areas where the reverse is true.

Last time it was raised, ten or fifteen years ago, it wasn't popular. Technology and other things have moved on since then - including the issue of revenue. It will be interesting to see how it plays out this time, if it's a serious proposal.

 

[Crispy]

Privacy concerns (real or exagerated) will kill the idea before it's born, I expect.

 

[weltweit]

Will it be instead of something like road tax or fuel duty or in addition to them?

 

[teuchter]

Privacy concerns (real or exagerated) will kill the idea before it's born, I expect.

That's largely what was used to kill it last time around ... however, do we now have more precedent for technology that can gather the necessary data without affecting privacy? The way the covid contact-tracing apps work is interesting but I don't know if similar approaches could be taken for something like this.

 

[teuchter]

Will it be instead of something like road tax or fuel duty or in addition to them?

obligatory "what road tax?" discussion

 

[Pickman's model]

That's largely what was used to kill it last time around ... however, do we now have more precedent for technology that can gather the necessary data without affecting privacy? The way the covid contact-tracing apps work is interesting but I don't know if similar approaches could be taken for something like this.

and how would you propose scrubbing the data from routinely collected anpr records?

 

[teuchter]

and how would you propose scrubbing the data from routinely collected anpr records?

I'm not proposing scrubbing data from anywhere. It's not something I'm bothered about because I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

From a pragmatic point of view, if a road pricing system can be made to work with minimal effect on privacy, then that's a good thing if it enables it, politically, to be implemented.

 

[alex_]

I'm not proposing scrubbing data from anywhere. It's not something I'm bothered about because I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

From a pragmatic point of view, if a road pricing system can be made to work with minimal effect on privacy, then that's a good thing if it enables it, politically, to be implemented.

for this to be effective it doesn’t need to report where you were, just that you did 375 hours of driving on category blah roads in 2020

 

[teuchter]

for this to be effective it doesn’t need to report where you were, just that you did 375 hours of driving on category blah roads in 2020

I imagine drivers will want a way of challenging it though, so I don't know if there's some way of storing the information in a way that the details can be revealed only at the driver's request, or something like that.

Or maybe it is done as some kind of pay-as-you-go system.

(I'm sure all this stuff has already been thought about by other people though)

 

[Crispy]

That's largely what was used to kill it last time around ... however, do we now have more precedent for technology that can gather the necessary data without affecting privacy? The way the covid contact-tracing apps work is interesting but I don't know if similar approaches could be taken for something like this.

Sure, you could have an encrypted black box that does all the cost calculations on the vehicle and simply sends a "Mrs. Blogs drove 50 miles in pricing zone A, 30 miles in pricing zone B" message back to central. But there would be a strong legal case for citizens to know what they're being charged for and to dispute errors. And you can be sure that there will be errors eg. driving on a feeder road parallel to a motorway, but getting charged for using the "more expensive" road. As soon as you make the records open to one, they are open to all.

I imagine drivers will want a way of challenging it though, so I don't know if there's some way of storing the information in a way that the details can be revealed only at the driver's request, or something like that.

Fundamentally impossible from a cryptographics POV.

 

[MickiQ]

I think it's an idea whose time is getting closer but has not yet arrived. It might very well turn out to be one of side effects of Covid since that has encouraged a major move to homeworking that isn't likely to be reversed so there will be less resistance to it.
It needs to be introduced at a time when electric vehicles are either in the majority or a very significant minority since I don't think the public will stand for both it and fuel duty. One thing we don't want to do is decrease fuel duty and possibly slow down the takeup of electric/hydrogen vehicles

 

[Crispy]

Although this paper claims to have solved it:

https://web.ma.utexas.edu/users/blumberg/congestion.pdf

Reading it now...

 

[Crispy]

I think it's an idea whose time is getting closer but has not yet arrived. It might very well turn out to be one of side effects of Covid since that has encouraged a major move to homeworking that isn't likely to be reversed so there will be less resistance to it.
It needs to be introduced at a time when electric vehicles are either in the majority or a very significant minority since I don't think the public will stand for both it and fuel duty. One thing we don't want to do is decrease fuel duty and possibly slow down the takeup of electric/hydrogen vehicles

Just have a multiplier for the per-mile price based on your VED classification.

 

[Crispy]

Although this paper claims to have solved it:

https://web.ma.utexas.edu/users/blumberg/congestion.pdf

Reading it now...

Seems like a reasonable method. It all reads very complicated, but would indeed allow for accurate billing that is mathematically impossible to track.
For the end-user it would be simple.
It doesn't solve the disputes issue though

Challenges to toll charges.
In the current system, disputing a toll charge requires considerable proof on the part of the accused that the charge was issued incorrectly. Our system is no different in this respect. One might, however, require the Traffic logger to post calibration information which indicates proper functioning to a website every day, or to record, along with each tolling event, calibration data which can be used to support the charges.

ie. The system says it's running perfectly, therefore there can't possibly be any errors.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

Number plates for bicycles and scooters then.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not proposing scrubbing data from anywhere. It's not something I'm bothered about because I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

From a pragmatic point of view, if a road pricing system can be made to work with minimal effect on privacy, then that's a good thing if it enables it, politically, to be implemented.

you asked the question

do we now have more precedent for technology that can gather the necessary data without affecting privacy?

maybe you don't consider it's someone's automatic right to drive their private vehicles on the public roads without any record being made of it. but it's strange to ask the question and than show no real interest in the matter subsequently. if people get from a to b without being involved in an accident or crime then why should their data be retained? on the basis you provide here there's no automatic right for anyone to go anywhere without any record being made of it, which i think's the wrong way round to look at it. you're saying there should be a presumption of surveillance whereas i think there should be a presumption of privacy. and to be honest that's the divide at the heart of this debate, does - should - the state have a record of where people go in their vehicles on journeys which occasion no harm? should the police have the right to establish without any statutory authority networks of cameras which capture all journeys made by motor vehicles? i don't think so: but it is no real surprise to find you do.

 

[Pickman's model]

Number plates for bicycles and scooters then.

not to mention pedestrians

 

[Spymaster]

I can't see how it could possibly work on all roads but generally it's a great idea. Keep the hoi polloi off the roads. More room for me.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't see how it could possibly work on all roads butu generally it's a great idea. Keep the hoi poloi off the roads. More room for me.

spymaster recently

 

[SpookyFrank]

Number plates for bicycles and scooters then.

Daily mail comment section ------------->

 

[MickiQ]

I'm not proposing scrubbing data from anywhere. It's not something I'm bothered about because I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

From a pragmatic point of view, if a road pricing system can be made to work with minimal effect on privacy, then that's a good thing if it enables it, politically, to be implemented.

You do realise that the entire point of public roads is for people to drive their private vehicles on? As a citizen I dutifully pay my taxes on the assumption that they will be used to provide services to myself and my fellow citizens.
Not every service they provide directly benefits me and I am cool with that.
I do however think it is reasonable for me to expect the state provides me with a road.
Privacy concerns are a major issue because this isn't actually tracking people it is tracking vehicles. Lots of households share a vehicle between 2 or more people. Do you think it's OK that the keeper of that vehicle could be a position where they could track the movements of their wife/husband/teenagers? What about company provided vehicles is it OK that your employer can track your movements including in your free time?

 

[teuchter]

you asked the question
maybe you don't consider it's someone's automatic right to drive their private vehicles on the public roads without any record being made of it. but it's strange to ask the question and than show no real interest in the matter subsequently. if people get from a to b without being involved in an accident or crime then why should their data be retained? on the basis you provide here there's no automatic right for anyone to go anywhere without any record being made of it, which i think's the wrong way round to look at it. you're saying there should be a presumption of surveillance whereas i think there should be a presumption of privacy. and to be honest that's the divide at the heart of this debate, does - should - the state have a record of where people go in their vehicles on journeys which occasion no harm? should the police have the right to establish without any statutory authority networks of cameras which capture all journeys made by motor vehicles? i don't think so: but it is no real surprise to find you do.

If I'd said the things you are saying I've said, then maybe there would some point in responding to the above. I haven't, and so there isn't.

 

[teuchter]

You do realise that the entire point of public roads is for people to drive their private vehicles on? As a citizen I dutifully pay my taxes on the assumption that they will be used to provide services to myself and my fellow citizens.
Not every service they provide directly benefits me and I am cool with that.
I do however think it is reasonable for me to expect the state provides me with a road.
Privacy concerns are a major issue because this isn't actually tracking people it is tracking vehicles. Lots of households share a vehicle between 2 or more people. Do you think it's OK that the keeper of that vehicle could be a position where they could track the movements of their wife/husband/teenagers? What about company provided vehicles is it OK that your employer can track your movements including in your free time?

What I said was:

I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

Like Pickman's model you seem to be extrapolating a whole load of stuff that doesn't follow from that statement.

Do you think that people should have an automatic right for no record to be made of them making use of any public service, or something? Or is private motoring some kind of special case, for some reason?

 

[Pickman's model]

If I'd said the things you are saying I've said, then maybe there would some point in responding to the above. I haven't, and so there isn't.

so you're denying that you posted

That's largely what was used to kill it last time around ... however, do we now have more precedent for technology that can gather the necessary data without affecting privacy? The way the covid contact-tracing apps work is interesting but I don't know if similar approaches could be taken for something like this.

and

I'm not proposing scrubbing data from anywhere. It's not something I'm bothered about because I don't consider it anyone's automatic right to drive their private vehicle on the public roads without any record being made of it.

From a pragmatic point of view, if a road pricing system can be made to work with minimal effect on privacy, then that's a good thing if it enables it, politically, to be implemented.

that's what i am saying you said and i regret the record shows you did in fact say them

 

[MickiQ]

What I said was:



Like Pickman's model you seem to be extrapolating a whole load of stuff that doesn't follow from that statement.

Do you think that people should have an automatic right for no record to be made of them making use of any public service, or something? Or is private motoring some kind of special case, for some reason?

Yes I do, clearly some compromises must be made in order to fund these services and public safety is an important priority but the default position on using a public service should be no publicly available record is kept and wherever possible no record should be kept at all

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Why worry about what sort of road? Simply charge a flat rate per mile. Easy to administer, no privacy worries.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Number plates for bicycles and scooters then.

Pushbikes don't need numberplates - it would cause unnecessary aerodynamic drag.

 

[Crispy]

Why worry about what sort of road? Simply charge a flat rate per mile. Easy to administer, no privacy worries.

Because cars in some places are more harmful to the public good than they are in others. The charge neccesary to make cities pleasant places to live (ie. to reduce car traffic to essentials only, leaving more space and clean air for PT/peds/cycles) would be overkill in the countryside (where a car is a necessity).

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes I do, clearly some compromises must be made in order to fund these services and public safety is an important priority but the default position on using a public service should be no publicly available record is kept and wherever possible no record should be kept at all

yeh no one keeps of record of what books people consult in a library
and many library management systems deliberately make it extremely difficult to find out what books people have borrowed once they've been returned.

 

[Spymaster]

Why worry about what sort of road? Simply charge a flat rate per mile. Easy to administer, no privacy worries.

Should a district nurse doing 300 miles/week visiting patients in the sticks in a 1 litre Micra, have to pay more than Bahnhof Strasse who does 100 miles/week having jollies and burn-ups in a 340bhp, twin turbo, racing car?