RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

[Cid]

Yeah, the hypocrisy burns. It also makes me angry that the thing that clinched his whole life tariff was reportedly because he misused his warrant card, not just because of the act itself. Why can't that be automatic for anyone who rapes and/or murders someone in cold blood, cop or not?

Wayne Couzens' whole-life tariff explained as only used for most heinous crimes

Sarah Everard's murderer Wayne Couzens joins a list of 60 other criminals who have been given a whole-life term in jail - a sentence reserved for the most serious of offences which fall into five categories

www.mirror.co.uk

Basically because it's not the law. Whole life tariffs can only be applied in a restricted range of exceptional cases... it would require legislation from parliament to change that. I'm not that familiar with the ins and outs, but you technically can spend the whole of your life behind bars on a life sentence. You still need to be paroled, and minimum tariffs can be applied (e.g no parole before 40 years for Ian Huntley). The difference with whole life tariffs is that any parole has to be an appeal to the High Court.

As with anything in justice, it's a balancing act. I mean someone who stabs another person when they're 20 may well be capable of reform, and having an overly harsh parole regime could just end up with overfilled prisons that disproportionately impact marginalised people as in the US. Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Basically because it's not the law. Whole life tariffs can only be applied in a restricted range of exceptional cases... it would require legislation from parliament to change that. I'm not that familiar with the ins and outs, but you technically can spend the whole of your life behind bars on a life sentence. You still need to be paroled, and minimum tariffs can be applied (e.g no parole before 40 years for Ian Huntley). The difference with whole life tariffs is that any parole has to be an appeal to the High Court.

As with anything in justice, it's a balancing act. I mean someone who stabs another person when they're 20 may well be capable of reform, and having an overly harsh parole regime could just end up with overfilled prisons that disproportionately impact marginalised people as in the US. Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.

Oh, I know it's not the law! I just meant it should be. Sorry that wasn't clear.

It is a funny term, "life sentence". I used to work in the probation service as a receptionist, and was told by one of their experienced officers that some of their most dangerous clients - rapists and even one or two murderers - were technically on a "life" sentence but were just serving it in the community on licence. I left because the office I worked at wanted to get rid of the bullet proof glass window on reception and make it more open-plan, so the clients would find it more "welcoming". Welcome to abuse us? I can get that in a phone-based job but at least you don't need to worry about your physical safety!

 

[8ball]

Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.

I’d like to think no one is beyond redemption but some cases challenge that idea pretty hard.

 

[Gramsci]

Very much what we’ve just been chatting about, the idea that the met is institutionally misogynistic:

The Metropolitan police canteen culture that shielded Sarah Everard’s killer

The murder of a woman by a serving officer has exposed the Met, once labelled institutionally racist, to accusations that it is also institutionally misogynist

www.theguardian.com

Read that. So the serving and former police officers quoted think the way to deal with the institutional sexism in the Met is to give the police more powers. To treat violence against women as a national threat on par with terrorism.

This is part of the problem with policing. The answer is to give the institution more power.

When what it needs to do first is sort itself out. If that is possible without undermining the police as an institution.

The officers quoted don't appear to have any knowledge that the Prevent strategy is controversial for example.

 

[weepiper]

Hmm. Same unit as Couzens.

 

[Cid]

Oh, I know it's not the law! I just meant it should be. Sorry that wasn't clear.

It is a funny term, "life sentence". I used to work in the probation service as a receptionist, and was told by one of their experienced officers that some of their most dangerous clients - rapists and even one or two murderers - were technically on a "life" sentence but were just serving it in the community on licence. I left because the office I worked at wanted to get rid of the bullet proof glass window on reception and make it more open-plan, so the clients would find it more "welcoming". Welcome to abuse us? I can get that in a phone-based job but at least you don't need to worry about your physical safety!

Liked for the interesting experience obviously. I have a friend who worked in parole, more chronic offenders/street homeless, but still much of her job sounds sketchy as fuck. Certainly not something I could do. At one of the major charities now.

 

[8ball]

When what it needs to do first is sort itself out. If that is possible without undermining the police as an institution.

The risk of undermining the institution shouldn’t be used as an excuse for not sorting it out, though. I think that has hampered things for some time.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Hmm. Same unit as Couzens.

Wonder what his nickname is.

 

[Gramsci]

The risk of undermining the institution shouldn’t be used as an excuse for not sorting it out, though. I think that has hampered things for some time.

I think it's what is happening. The Guardian article is an example. The other line of argument is the one rotten apple one.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Women Are Grieving After Gender-Based Violence, But Men Are Still Taking Up Space

Intentions might be good, but it's not a time for men to centre themselves.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

 

[8ball]

Women Are Grieving After Gender-Based Violence, But Men Are Still Taking Up Space

Intentions might be good, but it's not a time for men to centre themselves.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

I reacted a little to the headline, then was surprised to find myself agreeing more than I expected.

 

[Gramsci]

After Sarah Everard’s murder, police powers need to be curbed not strengthened | Shami Chakrabarti

There needs to be a full judicial inquiry into the case and broader police culture, says Shami Chakrabarti, former shadow attorney general

www.theguardian.com

Chakrabarti makes the point that police powers should be questioned in light of Everard case.

Whether or not you subscribe to the exceptionalist “bad ’un” theory of history, enshrining law and order and protecting the vulnerable is about ensuring we have and balances to prevent abuses of power. Over the last quarter of a century in Britain, many of these protections have been cast aside by successive governments

 

[8ball]

It also makes me angry that the thing that clinched his whole life tariff was reportedly because he misused his warrant card, not just because of the act itself. Why can't that be automatic for anyone who rapes and/or murders someone in cold blood, cop or not?

Wayne Couzens' whole-life tariff explained as only used for most heinous crimes

Sarah Everard's murderer Wayne Couzens joins a list of 60 other criminals who have been given a whole-life term in jail - a sentence reserved for the most serious of offences which fall into five categories

www.mirror.co.uk

Because one of the protections the police claim is for it to be seen (and sentenced) as worse to kill a police officer than a regular member of the public. This means that that they need ways of distancing themselves from crimes committed by their ranks wherever possible and means of washing their hands of it, otherwise that protection may not be tolerated.

 

[equationgirl]

After Sarah Everard’s murder, police powers need to be curbed not strengthened | Shami Chakrabarti

There needs to be a full judicial inquiry into the case and broader police culture, says Shami Chakrabarti, former shadow attorney general

www.theguardian.com

Chakrabarti makes the point that police powers should be questioned in light of Everard case.

The powers should absolutely be reviewed. Consequences for abuse of that power should also be reviewed, and if necessary revised.

 

[equationgirl]

Wonder what his nickname is.

'the other rapist'?

 

[equationgirl]

A review is currently underway to determine if misogyny will become a crime in its own right, in Scotland:

Justice secretary: Misogyny may become a stand-alone crime in Scotland

Scotland's justice secretary says it would send a "powerful signal" that sexist abuse will not be tolerated.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[teqniq]

This pretty much nails it:

Is it really so radical to say the police aren’t fit for purpose? | Nesrine Malik

From the UK to the US, the police are there to protect the powerful, not the powerless, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

Wonder what his nickname is.

wayne, no doubt

 

[Brainaddict]

Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.

Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.

 

[emanymton]

This pretty much nails it:

Is it really so radical to say the police aren’t fit for purpose? | Nesrine Malik

From the UK to the US, the police are there to protect the powerful, not the powerless, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

Depends on what their purpose is.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.

And I think most of us women have met that one guy who, while not an actual rapist, doesn't seem to realise that unwanted touching is assault and will try and make you feel like you're being uptight or a cold bitch when you object.

 

[equationgirl]

And I think most of us women have met that one guy who, while not an actual rapist, doesn't seem to realise that unwanted touching is assault and will try and make you feel like you're being uptight or a cold bitch when you object.

Who doesn't see coercive sex as rape
Who can't have raped anyone because he's such a nice guy
Who gets a bit touchy feely sometimes

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.

Stems from the misconception that all rape is forced sex by a stranger in a dark alleyway, that's the "monstrous" rape. Completely ignores the (e.g.) man who won't take no at the end of a date, also rape.

Johnson's "We're going to do everything to make sure all rapists are behind bars" is such utter bullshit. It's the snappy soundbite with no substance whatsoever, no mention of how the tiny, tiny conviction rate is all of a sudden going to jump to 100%. Certainly no mention that for every rapist there is at least one rape victim, no mention of preventative measures, no mention of cultural shift. Just some wild fantastical notion of punitive justice as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[existentialist]

Stems from the misconception that all rape is forced sex by a stranger in a dark alleyway, that's the "monstrous" rape. Completely ignores the (e.g.) man who won't take no at the end of a date, also rape.

Johnson's "We're going to do everything to make sure all rapists are behind bars" is such utter bullshit. It's the snappy soundbite with no substance whatsoever, no mention of how the tiny, tiny conviction rate is all of a sudden going to jump to 100%. Certainly no mention that for every rapist there is at least one rape victim, no mention of preventative measures, no mention of cultural shift. Just some wild fantastical notion of punitive justice as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.

There is also the likelihood that all the focus on punishment - which, I suspect, will equate to a "quick win" by bashing in some severe mandatory sentencing - will achieve is a greater determination amongst (some) rapists to ensure that their victim is in no position to give evidence against them. I have no idea if that is a documented thing, but anything that makes it more likely that a rapist will also kill their victim doesn't seem particularly wise to me. Quite apart from your point that it's all posturing bullshit, anyway.

 

[Cid]

Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.

I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.

But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.

 

[Thora]

I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.

But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.

If you asked women how many of them had been coerced or pressured into sex they didn't want by friends, boyfriends, husbands, or had sex they didn't consent to due to being drunk or asleep, I think you might conclude than actually a lot of men are very capable of it

 

[Thora]

And the study you link to isn't even about how many men commit rape, it's about how many men (college students) admit to committing rape.

 

[polly]

I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.

But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.

As Thora says, it's unlikely you don't know a few. I know for sure two men who have raped friends of mine, one of whom was also a very good friend. Someone lovely, caring, funny, sweet etc, who I'd got drunk and vulnerable with countless times. The other is now a family man (it happened a long time ago), really sensitive and artistic. Neither of them monsters. I would say as a man that you shouldn't trust any of your male friends not to be capable of this. That sounds bleak but really, we are products of our environment, at least to an extent, and our environment is fucking toxic and shitty.

(My mum left me alone with the second one for an evening, despite the fact that I told her he had raped my friend and I was scared of him. My mum isn't a monster either.)

 

[Cid]

Honestly I'm just going to leave it with what the two you said. I think there are complexities there, but I'm not the right person to unpack them, nor is this the right thread.

 

[equationgirl]

I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.

But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.

There was a law passed some time ago , after a number of high profile cases on college campuses, where colleges must publish figures about how many crimes haytaken place on the campus each year.

Consequently, very few practice accurate crime reporting and many encourage resolution through internal disciplinary processes rather than involving actual police (campus police forces don't seem to have Investigatory powers or often even training).

As far as I know, there is no mandatory reporting law for colleges and universities in the UK.