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RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

LeytonCatLady said:
Poor woman, I hope she's OK. Don't kick yourself though; she did manage to get away, and sometimes when you see something horrific happening you can be too stunned to react appropriately at the time. You're only human, so don't be hard on yourself for not reacting "perfectly". I think it's great that you're aware of that, and your post is a nice reminder that there's loads of good men who listen to and care about women's struggles.
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They were both black, so I was also wondering whether inserting Brixton police into their lives might backfire. Sometimes it's better to get help from friends and family than from a bunch of racist bullies in uniform.
 
ouirdeaux said:
Of course not.

But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implication of Sarah Everard's murder?
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There's more than one implication of se's killing: but seeing as the met haven't really dealt with the implications of eg mark duggan or smiley culture's killings I think it may be quite some time before they do more than pay lip service to the implications
 
weepiper said:

Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public - Police Scotland

Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public news release
www.scotland.police.uk www.scotland.police.uk
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I guess at least that means someone will be aware of the interaction and the copper would have to be fucking stupid to try anything. But really, if it hadn't been for this tragedy, it's not the sort of thing anyone would think to do.

Not quite as evil - although close enough - but I remember reading about similarly missing-the-point type victim blaming in 2008, 2009. There was this guy in London posing as a landlord and scamming money from people. He'd break into an empty flat, advertise it on Gumtree, show people round who would fall for it because he actually had a flat to show them. The widely known version of that scam at the time was the "Please send the deposit amount to yourself via Western Union and then forward me the receipt" where the scammer makes all these bullshit excuses not to meet you, but I think that was one of the first publicised case where the scam didn't happen that way. Anyway, similarly missing the point, some idiot detective appeared on the news to lecture renters about how you should "Always view a property before you hand over money!" They DID! The flat existed all right, it just didn't belong to him!

Yes, reading about that did make me more vigilant about checking the landlord's details on the Land Registry when moving somewhere, to make sure the name matches. But unless I'd been aware of that sort of sophisticated rent scam, where the perp goes out of his way to make himself believable, why would you think twice?
 
ouirdeaux said:
Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.

But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?
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As far as i can see, every effort is being made to not 'acknowledge the implications' of her rape and murder by a serving police officer, instead the messaging has been, nothing to do with us, he's a bad individual who slipped under the radar somehow. Let's talk about how to identify fake police officers instead of talking about how come he was one of us.

I don't know the answer, on whether anything real has actually changed since the met was declared institutionally racist, but to me it sounded like step one of anything potentially changing.
 
bimble said:
As far as i can see, every effort is being made to not 'acknowledge the implications' of her rape and murder by a serving police officer, instead the messaging has been, nothing to do with us, he's a bad individual who slipped under the radar somehow. Let's talk about how to identify fake police officers instead of talking about how come he was one of us.

I don't know the answer, on whether anything real has actually changed since the met was declared institutionally racist, but to me it sounded like step one of anything potentially changing.
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Yeah, that's it. They need to accept responsibility for ignoring the red flags about his previous behaviour, like the indecent exposure and the racist WhatsApp messages and not disciplining him up to and including firing. It might not have stopped him committing murder, but at least he wouldn't have been able to use his police credentials to do it. And they need to pay attention to racist/misogynist tendencies in other officers too. Not because every sexist or racist person is automatically a murderer - most wouldn't go that far - but because many rapists and murderers have those attitudes. And because you can't trust someone with any kind of "us and them" mindset to deal fairly with the public anyway.
 
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Pickman's model said:
Organisations are not simply composed of individuals. As Errol Flynn points out in they died with their boots on, organisations have a soul of their own. They gather an internal culture based on both bottom-up and top-down influences. There are hierarchies, and there are interest groups who advance their own agendas and combat those of others. Just saying organisations are a bunch of individuals is facile and does not allow for meaningful analysis.
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I agree with this post totally, but there’s a niggling part of me that wonders whether we are letting ourselves off too lightly.

It probably needs its own thread, though.
 
8ball said:
I think ouirdeaux is right to wonder about what was going on with his nickname, though. While he was one of them, this is what they called him.
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What it tells me loudest is that there appeared (appears) to be a very big disconnection in the minds of his colleagues between their perception of him as a weirdo, and the fact that there might be victims of this behaviour out there, who probably wouldn't find it quite such a laugh.
 
LeytonCatLady said:
I guess at least that means someone will be aware of the interaction and the copper would have to be fucking stupid to try anything. But really, if it hadn't been for this tragedy, it's not the sort of thing anyone would think to do.

Not quite as evil - although close enough - but I remember reading about similarly missing-the-point type victim blaming in 2008, 2009. There was this guy in London posing as a landlord and scamming money from people. He'd break into an empty flat, advertise it on Gumtree, show people round who would fall for it because he actually had a flat to show them. The widely known version of that scam at the time was the "Please send the deposit amount to yourself via Western Union and then forward me the receipt" where the scammer makes all these bullshit excuses not to meet you, but I think that was one of the first publicised case where the scam didn't happen that way. Anyway, similarly missing the point, some idiot detective appeared on the news to lecture renters about how you should "Always view a property before you hand over money!" They DID! The flat existed all right, it just didn't belong to him!

Yes, reading about that did make me more vigilant about checking the landlord's details on the Land Registry when moving somewhere, to make sure the name matches. But unless I'd been aware of that sort of sophisticated rent scam, where the perp goes out of his way to make himself believable, why would you think twice?
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I know it’s off topic but this reminds me of when we almost rented a flat in 1999 south London. It was too cheap and the organisation we were renting from were very pushy about the deposit. We checked with companies house and the company had gone bankrupt some time ago. I can’t remember all the ins and outs as it was so long ago but we found out he had rented the flat on a short term lease to pull off the scam. Once we said we weren’t interested the phone number went dead. Close shave.
 
There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.
 
David Clapson said:
There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.
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Even though it's well-deserved, I think Dick resigning would just create a massive sideshow which will inevitably divert attention from the actual work which needs to be done.
 
David Clapson said:
There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.
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Another triumph of hope over experience

As a moment's thought would tell you there is zero chance of her being made to fall on her sword during the Tory party conference: and it's barely weeks after her contract was extended for two years because no one of the required calibre was available
 
David Clapson said:
All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.
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It's hard to know when or whether to intervene. Could be a domestic and you could end up getting in trouble if you directly approached the couple...

Not that the guy's behaviour is in any way acceptable.
 
Pickman's model said:
As a moment's thought would tell you there is zero chance of her being made to fall on her sword during the Tory party conference: and it's barely weeks after her contract was extended for two years because no one of the required calibre was available
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You say that as if the two were somehow connected. Since when has this government ever cared about keeping its word or worried about a U-turn? Or worried about consequences of a U-turn? If they see crowd-pleasing in it, or money in it, they will do it.
 
Edie said:
I always think resignations are a tokenistic distraction from solving the problem tbh. Get rid of Cressida Dick and you won’t of changed the institutional sexism.
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Whether or not that's true as a general principle, she deserves to go as a result of the Daniel Morgan inquiry. And in my opinion her vocal support of state violence against women in March shows she's incapable of dealing with this problem. Depressingly, I think it's unlikely any replacement would do much either but that's hardly a reason for her to keep her job.
 
ouirdeaux said:
Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.

But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?
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The context is always going to be the political function of the police, the reality of that function, as well the fantasies that police have about their own function. You'd have to do a lot of group work, and you do that in the context of an understanding of the conscious and unconscious functions of the police for the rest of society, and how those are met by individuals in the organisation, as well as the group. Similar to what you might need to do to have a well functioning NHS - what does the NHS stand for, in fantasy, what is projected into it, what underlying emotional needs are met there by its workers, what kind of organisations cultures and defences are created into order to keep people there doing their job, why are so many leaving. Uncertainties about roles are likely to amplify existing anxieties and defences. You need people who can work with conflict and contradiction.

I don't think they'll do this, it's a massive undertaking, and might undermine the political function of the police but there are organisational consultants who work with the police, I came across someone referencing a piece of consultancy work done with the police a few months ago but I can't remember where, I read so much stuff on the internet. I'll try and track it down.
 
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