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RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.

Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?

Or 'yeah, maybe he's been technically guilty of rape, but he's basically a good sort'?

Or 'every copper's entitled to bend the law now and again, this is his way'?

Or any number of other things?

I'll never find out, though, as even if someone involved does decide to explain, there's no way of knowing whether they're telling the truth.
 
Poot said:
One of my colleagues was briefly a police officer. I asked him about it a while ago. He got out asap because he realised that every single person there was 'an inadequate' as he put it. They were there to take out their powerlessness on society. At 6'3" and being a bit of a gentle giant type who's actually quite naive and really wanted to help people, he got very sick of their shit very, very quickly and left.

Fragile egos and criticism do not make for a happy outcome. Hence the police actions at the vigil. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of that rather than less. The police are likely to double down if anything, at least that's my prediction.
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This is the other side of the vetting process - decent people who join the police out of naive idealism don't stick around for long when they discover the sort of shit so many of their colleagues get up to, and find out that they are expected to cover for them.

And to repeat, this is an institutional issue, not primarily about good or bad individuals
 
I've been waiting for someone high profile to call for the sacking of all police who are sexual harassers or domestic abusers. Seems to me an obvious first step (there are many more steps necessary after that). I'm a bit puzzled that it hasn't come out as a major demand yet.
 
andysays said:
This is the other side of the vetting process - decent people who join the police out of naive idealism don't stick around for long when they discover the sort of shit so many of their colleagues get up to, and find out that they are expected to cover for them.

And to repeat, this is an institutional issue, not primarily about good or bad individuals
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This sort of demonisation just covers up the institutional nature of the sexism. Most coppers- men and women- will be decent people. The organisation they work for is institutionally racist tho.
 
ouirdeaux said:
What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.

Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?

Or 'yeah, maybe he's been technically guilty of rape, but he's basically a good sort'?

Or 'every copper's entitled to bend the law now and again, this is his way'?

Or any number of other things?

I'll never find out, though, as even if someone involved does decide to explain, there's no way of knowing whether they're telling the truth.
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They were probably thinking "what's wrong with a bit of rape and gigglez between the boyz hey?"

Sources: Rugby League, NRL, RFU etc etc...
 
ouirdeaux said:
What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.

Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?

Or 'yeah, maybe he's been technically guilty of rape, but he's basically a good sort'?

Or 'every copper's entitled to bend the law now and again, this is his way'?

Or any number of other things?

I'll never find out, though, as even if someone involved does decide to explain, there's no way of knowing whether they're telling the truth.
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Some people do throw words like "rape" around in a jokey way like in your first example, and that's just the tip of the problematic iceberg, not to mention being very upsetting to people overhearing who could be/ know a rape victim.

I used to work in a call centre back in 2010, which was actually a very nice, inclusive place to work and not misogynistic at all. But there was one group of blokes there who'd take the piss out of each other in a friendly way, and one of their injokes every time one of them got too close or brushed up against another was "Ah Sean, you sex pest!" At the time we all saw it as harmless fun. Now I'm wondering if "Sean" was to appear in the press having done something so revolting, would that banter be brought up? If so, no one would know if it was just a bad joke between mates or if they really did know something bad about him and chose to ignore it. Talk about your own words coming back to haunt you!

Like I said, it was 11 years ago, and those lads were in their late 20s/early 30s at the time, so hopefully they're a bit more educated about why you shouldn't make light of sexual harassment. I admit I didn't really think much of it myself at the time, apart from seeing it as the joke it was so obviously meant to be, but I'd definitely challenge that choice of words now.
 
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All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.
 
David Clapson said:
All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.
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Poor woman, I hope she's OK. Don't kick yourself though; she did manage to get away, and sometimes when you see something horrific happening you can be too stunned to react appropriately at the time. You're only human, so don't be hard on yourself for not reacting "perfectly". I think it's great that you're aware of that, and your post is a nice reminder that there's loads of good men who listen to and care about women's struggles.
 
Edie said:
This sort of demonisation just covers up the institutional nature of the sexism. Most coppers- men and women- will be decent people. The organisation they work for is institutionally racist tho.
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What sort of demonisation?

The whole point I've been attempting to make is about the institutional nature of the problem, rather than it being simply down to one sick individual.
 
Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing violence committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.
 
ouirdeaux said:
Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing sexism committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.
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What do you think institutional racism means? A bunch of individual racists who just happen to work at the same place?
There is such a thing as culture, humans are social animals who adapt to survive in their given environment, we're not just a bunch of fixed individuals good or bad, racist or not, sexist or not, bouncing about untouched by our day to day context.

The 'rotten apple' metaphor is always totally misused, the whole point of a rotten apple is that it spoils the barrel, people miss that bit off.

This is a thing I saw ages ago, think this link will do.
It is possible to trace corruption and misconduct within police forces like a virus, it is infectious, you either consciously choose, if you can, to not work with those officers or you become just like them.
theintercept.com

Bad Chicago Cops Spread Their Misconduct Like a Disease

Because Chicago’s police complaints can list multiple officers at once, it’s possible to build a giant social network of police interactions.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
 
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ouirdeaux said:
Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing sexism committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.
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And many of them may start out as decent people, but in becoming incorporated into the institution they change, and come to accept and effectively ignore indecent actions when committed by their colleagues.

That's an important part of how an institution like the Police force works and perpetuates itself.
 
ouirdeaux said:
Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing violence committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.
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There is no such thing as society...
 
scalyboy said:
Sadly I think you’re right; there’s a collective denial at work, hence the truth-twisting claims that he wasn’t a serving police officer.
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Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc.

The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.

And what's worse, it was a woman cop who was in denial, someone who works in a domestic violence unit, and who claims to have never encountered a colleague who's a wrong 'un in more than two decades of policing.

The closing ranks and denial of the problem is very real.
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc.

The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.

And what's worse, it was a woman cop who was in denial, someone who works in a domestic violence unit, and who claims to have never encountered a colleague who's a wrong 'un in more than two decades of policing.

The closing ranks and denial of the problem is very real.
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I wonder where they might be getting their cues from...? :hmm:
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc.

The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.

And what's worse, it was a woman cop who was in denial, someone who works in a domestic violence unit, and who claims to have never encountered a colleague who's a wrong 'un in more than two decades of policing.

The closing ranks and denial of the problem is very real.
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There are none so blind as those who will not see
 
One tiny thing that would be some kind of a better than nothing, even as a gesture, might be if the role in the UK government of 'Minister For Women and Equalities' wasn't just some joke of a part time gig that Liz fucking Truss is supposed to do in her spare time when she's not trying to advance the international pork markets, but an actual role worth somebody's attention.
 
bimble said:
One tiny thing that would be some kind of a better than nothing, even as a gesture, might be if the role in the UK government of 'Minister For Women and Equalities' wasn't just some joke of a part time gig that Liz fucking Truss is supposed to do in her spare time when she's not trying to advance the international pork markets, but an actual role worth somebody's attention.
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It's not the first time it's been a part-time portfolio, and should as you say be given the full time attention of a department
 
I hate Thatcher with as much passion as the next would-be grave-pisser refraining only out of courtesy for those who happened to be dancing, but on that point she happened to be right. It's taking it out of context that makes her seem monstrous. Now she WAS monstrous, but not for that particular comment, at which point this all becomes so pointlessly pedantic that I give up in despair.

Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it. Giving it some separate mythical existence isn't doing anything. So the Met was institutionally racist in 1999? And now, two decades on, it's not only still racist, but institutionally sexist? Well, I suppose the acknowledgement is progress, but apart from that, what has improved?
 
ouirdeaux said:
Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it.
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i don't understand what you're suggesting here.
Do you think the only way to make the met police for instance less likely to nurture and equip another Couzens would be to what, chat to individual officers to see if they might be rapist murderers but not waste time trying to understand the rottenness of the institution itself that allowed him to work there, its processes and culture? You might see it as a coincidence that he was a policeman, maybe. I don't.
 
ouirdeaux said:
I hate Thatcher with as much passion as the next would-be grave-pisser refraining only out of courtesy for those who happened to be dancing, but on that point she happened to be right. It's taking it out of context that makes her seem monstrous. Now she WAS monstrous, but not for that particular comment, at which point this all becomes so pointlessly pedantic that I give up in despair.

Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it. Giving it some separate mythical existence isn't doing anything. So the Met was institutionally racist in 1999? And now, two decades on, it's not only still racist, but institutionally sexist? Well, I suppose the acknowledgement is progress, but apart from that, what has improved?
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Organisations are not simply composed of individuals. As Errol Flynn points out in they died with their boots on, organisations have a soul of their own. They gather an internal culture based on both bottom-up and top-down influences. There are hierarchies, and there are interest groups who advance their own agendas and combat those of others. Just saying organisations are a bunch of individuals is facile and does not allow for meaningful analysis.
 
Pickman's model said:
It's not the first time it's been a part-time portfolio, and should as you say be given the full time attention of a department
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It’s been part time since the role was created in 1997. I’ve literally just finished writing my masters dissertation about why it’s not fit for purpose and should be abolished or beefed up because it’s fuck all use right now.
 
bimble said:
i don't understand what you're suggesting here.
Do you think the only way to make the met police for instance less likely to nurture and equip another Couzens would be to what, chat to individual officers to see if they might be rapist murderers but not waste time trying to understand the rottenness of the institution itself that allowed him to work there, its processes and culture?
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Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.

But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?
 
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