RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

[David Clapson]

The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women

Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent; and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.

 

[existentialist]

The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women

Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent; and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.

"Oh, we can't be doing with that forn politically correct nonsense. Here in the UK, we have our own ways of dealing with the little ladies."

 

[LeytonCatLady]

A "like" wasn't enough. I am absolutely sure that his "grief" was more about self-pity than anything else. But I liked that they demanded that he look at them - that shows tremendous courage and determination...I know that the prospect of delivering my own victim impact statement was a terrifying one, even though I'm usually perfectly up to doing that kind of thing. I had a little cry when I read about it.

I'm sure you did fine. I'm sorry it was necessary though.

 

[existentialist]

I'm sure you did fine. I'm sorry it was necessary though.

I didn't have to, in the end. The judge incorporated bits of it into her sentencing remarks. Which I was grateful for, but also felt slightly cheated by. But she blended it in well to her judicial ripping into him.

 

[AverageJoe]

This thread breaks my heart.

So many frustrated female posters. A lot of male posters that want to help but aren't sure how to.

I drink in a local pub in a small town. The table I frequent is full of mysoginists, casual racists and flat track bullies. I call them out all the time about it. They react by being even more outrageous, to get the laugh from others

I've been punched twice for that. I've been barred for three months for reacting. I genuinely want to help be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. My kids (11 and 13) are totally cool and have no negative opinions of race, sex or religion etc. The teachers at school are amazing and have helped bring them up as well rounded, fair thinking people.

But they are kids. I'm 50. As much as I try to do the right thing by calling this shitty behaviour it, I'm teased, and sometimes attacked, and worse... Gossiped about. Thats the one that gets me.

I'd like to think I'm part of the solution rather than part of the problem, but I kinda realise that men these days, are in general just so shit that I'm struggling to have the energy to fight the fight when it's easier to walk away for fear of being attacked or ostracised.

I mean I won't, and I never would. But fuck me it's hard work and tiring to continually tell people that the comments and attitudes they have are wrong.

And at the end of the day I go to the pub to have a pint and a chat, not to teach them.

I'm not sure sometimes even if I'm doing the right thing. It's really hard to be a man, telling other men they are being cunts.

I realise this last sentence might not be written in the way I mean it, but I hope you get. the idea.

No person, should ever be put in a situation they are uncomfortable with in any instance. I fear that without massive changes (of which I have no idea what they would be or how they would be done), it's going to be down to my kids and their friends and peers to make this much more equal. And that time is six or seven years away.

Sorry for the long post. It's meant with the best intentions x

 

[Steel Icarus]

The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women

Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent; and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.

I'm writing a session to be delivered to students across my college about consent, sexual harassment, abuse and the culture of sexism. I talked to a lot of female students to ask what they'd like it to include as I was conscious I couldn't properly put such a thing together from my experiences.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

This thread breaks my heart.

So many frustrated female posters. A lot of male posters that want to help but aren't sure how to.

I drink in a local pub in a small town. The table I frequent is full of mysoginists, casual racists and flat track bullies. I call them out all the time about it. They react by being even more outrageous, to get the laugh from others

I've been punched twice for that. I've been barred for three months for reacting. I genuinely want to help be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. My kids (11 and 13) are totally cool and have no negative opinions of race, sex or religion etc. The teachers at school are amazing and have helped bring them up as well rounded, fair thinking people.

But they are kids. I'm 50. As much as I try to do the right thing by calling this shitty behaviour it, I'm teased, and sometimes attacked, and worse... Gossiped about. Thats the one that gets me.

I'd like to think I'm part of the solution rather than part of the problem, but I kinda realise that men these days, are in general just so shit that I'm struggling to have the energy to fight the fight when it's easier to walk away for fear of being attacked or ostracised.

I mean I won't, and I never would. But fuck me it's hard work and tiring to continually tell people that the comments and attitudes they have are wrong.

And at the end of the day I go to the pub to have a pint and a chat, not to teach them.

I'm not sure sometimes even if I'm doing the right thing. It's really hard to be a man, telling other men they are being cunts.

I realise this last sentence might not be written in the way I mean it, but I hope you get. the idea.

No person, should ever be put in a situation they are uncomfortable with in any instance. I fear that without massive changes (of which I have no idea what they would be or how they would be done), it's going to be down to my kids and their friends and peers to make this much more equal. And that time is six or seven years away.

Sorry for the long post. It's meant with the best intentions x

Joe, don't be so hard on yourself. You're doing what you can - speaking up when you hear something sexist, telling your peers it's not OK, and raising your kids to do the same. That's all anyone can do. If anything, you're going above and beyond in risking physical violence, which nobody expects of you, but you do that anyway because you believe in what you're saying! You're a good bloke, along with my brothers, male friends and countless blokes on this board I have a laugh with every day, and it breaks my heart when horrible stories like this are in the paper - first and foremost for their victims, but also for the many innocent men who wouldn't dream of doing what Couzens et al did, but risk being lumped in with him anyway because women have no way of telling.

I get what you're saying from the woman side of the coin too. I used to work on a team of women who used to do nothing but slag our male colleagues off all day, and they disliked me for not joining in. They used to say stuff like "All men are violent" and I asked how they'd like it if it was a group of blokes sitting round saying "All women are stupid, bitchy, incompetent etc", because it was the exact same kind of naff generalisation they were making. (This was the same group of women who stuck up for a man on the team who sexually harassed me, because he was "only paying me a compliment" and blamed me for "getting him fired", by the way.) One time when they said "Men are a different species", I asked them how that was any different from the excuses made for slavery, and "separate-but-equal" laws, to which I got no satisfactory reply. It does feel as though many people think gender is the "last acceptable prejudice". So I know what it's like to feel the need to lead by example all the time, and it is exhausting. I felt the same - I was there to do admin work, not educate a bunch of seemingly intelligent women that "othering" is wrong! But sometimes if you run out of energy, it's OK to quietly lead by example by...just not making offensive remarks yourself. Maybe it's different in my case because my female colleagues didn't have the same social power that men do, and can't do as much damage with sexist remarks (although it's still not right, and men do suffer discrimination in certain jobs), but yeah, we shouldn't have to still be reminding each other about that in the 21st century!

Your two kids and their mates sound like they're pretty right-on anyway, without having to wait until they're 17/18/19 etc. A lot can happen in six or seven years, and by the time they are adults, hopefully we'll have made more progress.

 

[Plumdaff]

My daughter's 9 and you see it even at that age from a minority of the boys. Horrid, sexist teasing. Statements about what girls can't do, how rubbish girls are. I think it is better than when I was a kid but there's still a significant number of young boys getting this at home, or from their peers or somewhere and it's really awful that it continues. We really need to think about how we educate and socialise boys and young men. And I don't mean school, I mean as a society, what do we want to instill in them.

 

[AverageJoe]

Thank you LCL. I really appreciate that

 

[Gramsci]

Cllr Anna Birley from Lambeth and organiser of Reclaim the Streets said today on ten o'clock radio 4 news that Cressida Dick should resign. That the Home Secretary extending her contract was wrong.

Bit surprised at that. While back I was at local community meeting and said that. Wasn't taken seriously by senior Lambeth Cllr present. We have good relations with Police was what I was told during meeting. They weren't going to call for her resignation.

So be interesting how Lambeth Labour group deal with Cllr Birley comment on Cressida Dick.

Cressida Dick has long history with Lambeth. Not a good one.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I dunno. There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.

 

[Plumdaff]

I dunno. There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.

She should never have got the job because of Stockwell but she's presided over a repugnant, violent and defensive police culture - even today their first instinct has been to distance and defend themselves. Women who uphold misogyny are part of the problem too.

 

[Gramsci]

Calls for her resignation by Harriet Harman. Who even sent Cressida Dick a letter on this. Retweeted by Cllr Anna Birley. Good to see this. This among other issues of how she has policed London mean she should go.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.

I'd been going out with my first ex for about a year when I realised he thought that. We were watching The Office, and he'd shake his head in disapproval every time Tim interacted with Dawn/Rachel/any other woman, saying things like "Weak man!" Probably because Tim's the only one of the main male characters who actually respects women as equals, unlike sexist David and Gareth.

 

[Gramsci]

From what I remember of what Cllr Anna Birley said was that Cressida Dick keeps saying lessons have been learned.

Her whole career is based on that.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I’ve just found out (about an hour ago) that a bloke I used to work with has been sent to prison for two years for using chat rooms to coerce children into sexual things.

This guy was a colleague, not a friend. I never even had drinks after work with him I don’t think. I liked him and thought he was a lovely guy. I’d have said he’d never hurt a fly. I feel really shaken up and upset after finding out this news. I’d have sworn black was white that this guy was one of the good ones. What the fuck do we do when shit like this happens all the fucking time?

I remember when I was temping years ago and the temp agency sent me to do some admin work at the Probation Service, and they had loads of index cards recording individual records of community service. I remember noticing that lots of the cards had a small red round sticker on them and when I asked what that was for, I was told, iirc, that those were the people sentenced to community service who'd been convicted of some kind of sexual offence. So they weren't allowed to eg be sent to a school to do some painting or couldn't be sent to an old folks home to do gardening or any tasks where there might be young or old or otherwise vulnerable people around.

I remember being really shocked by how many there were.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women

Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent; and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.

It is sorta there. I know it's on my tutorial curriculum as a topic. Unfortunately a lot of the time teachers are meant to mix it in to other lessons sprinkled through the course. However its not a main focus so often gets left out unless you get a brainwave on how to fit it in. Often you more worried about making sure students get the assessment criteria on which your performance will be judged than thinking about great ways to integrate topics that you might not even feel well equipped to handle.

Thats if you manage to get it in after all the embedded English, maths, and British values...

 

[Red Cat]

Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?

It's very broad, just off the top of my head:

It's part of the whole make up of our society, which is based on exploitation and inequality, that's what capitalism is. If there wasn't a strong ideology that some of us deserve to be exploited then it wouldn't function in that way. The whole thing is based on exceptions to equality, some people are worth less, less human than others, women, working-class people, black and brown people etc. Some are the exploiters and the rest are exploited. Critiques of the family, when they were fashionable, used to involve an idea that men took out the humiliations of the workplace (in which we have little power) on women and children at home. I don't hear that kind of critique anymore.

Psychoanalytically, the idea is that people, unconsciously, project their vulnerability into others, where it is despised. This begins very early, and it will take the form of the culture children are a part of. Tough boys become tough by projecting their 'weakness' elsewhere, into girls, into gay people, it's put out there. This can get stuck and concrete, and these other people, people who are seen as part of a group who share characteristics, become hated. Add some paranoia - it's all their fault - and it's very toxic.

Many boys are referred into CAMHS for aggression and violence. There might be family difficulties, exposure to dv, sometimes neurodevelopmental difficulties. Girls too, but not so often, I don't think it's taken as seriously. Boys violence scares people, they don't know how to manage it- 'what happens when he's bigger than me and he's like his dad?'

And then, there are some children who are severely neglected, subject to or exposed to violence, the use of drugs and violence, terribly abused or tortured even who go into care and their hatred might be evident from quite young, there are some children who enjoy hurting and killing animals. Its hatred that should be the red flag, not only hatred of women, that's the shape that hatred takes, and that shape might be more obvious later, but the underlying warning that a child needs help is hatred, and taking pleasure in hatred, and a belief that if they are not to be the prey, the victim, then they must be the predator. And this needs to be seen, alongside their vulnerability, and not turned away from because we don't like to think such things about children and they need the right therapy, and well-supported carers, which has a chance of helping.

I think the use of drugs and porn really amplifies any underlying hatred. It gives that hatred a form and offers excitement. This is a massive problem.

 

[Poot]

It's very broad, just off the top of my head:

It's part of the whole make up of our society, which is based on exploitation and inequality, that's what capitalism is. If there wasn't a strong ideology that some of us deserve to be exploited then it wouldn't function in that way. The whole thing is based on exceptions to equality, some people are worth less, less human than others, women, working-class people, black and brown people etc. Some are the exploiters and the rest are exploited. Critiques of the family, when they were fashionable, used to involve an idea that men took out the humiliations of the workplace (in which we have little power) on women and children at home. I don't hear that kind of critique anymore.

Psychoanalytically, the idea is that people, unconsciously, project their vulnerability into others, where it is despised. This begins very early, and it will take the form of the culture children are a part of. Tough boys become tough by projecting their 'weakness' elsewhere, into girls, into gap people, it's put out there. This can get stuck and concrete, and these other people, people who are seen as part of a group who share characteristics, become hated. Add some paranoia - it's all their fault - and it's very toxic.

Many boys are referred into CAMHS for aggression and violence. There might be family difficulties, exposure to dv, sometimes neurodevelopmental difficulties. Girls too, but not so often, I don't think it's taken as seriously. Boys violence scares people, they don't know how to manage it- 'what happens when he's bigger than me and he's like his dad?'

And then, there are some children who are severely neglected, subject to or exposed to violence, the use of drugs and violence, terribly abused or tortured even who go into care and their hatred might be evident from quite young, there are some children who enjoy hurting and killing animals. Its hatred that should be the red flag, not only hatred of women, that's the shape that hatred takes, and that shape might be more obvious later, but the underlying warning that a child needs help is hatred, and taking pleasure in hatred, and a belief that if they are not to be the prey, the victim, then they must be the predator. And this needs to be seen, alongside their vulnerability, and not turned away from because we don't like to think such things about children and they need the right therapy, and well-supported carers, which has a chance of helping.

I think the use of drugs and porn really amplifies any underlying hatred. It gives that hatred a form and offers excitement. This is a massive problem.

This is really interesting - what a great post.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dunno. There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.

I'm not sure why you think cd's position tenable when her force has such a lamentable record under her leadership of refusing to accept criticism (eg the Daniel Morgan report) as well as egregious failures in investigating its own - thinking here of the accusations against WC. At some point she has to take responsibility for the met's in/actions.

 

[SpookyFrank]

My daughter's 9 and you see it even at that age from a minority of the boys. Horrid, sexist teasing. Statements about what girls can't do, how rubbish girls are. I think it is better than when I was a kid but there's still a significant number of young boys getting this at home, or from their peers or somewhere and it's really awful that it continues. We really need to think about how we educate and socialise boys and young men. And I don't mean school, I mean as a society, what do we want to instill in them.

Yes the school ecosystem is one thing but what they're exposed to at home is another. I had one kid tell me that his dad had told him he'd shoot him in the face if he came out as gay. Unsurprisingly this kid presented in school as being surly, obnoxious and jaded beyond his years. Somewhere in there was a normal, happy kid trying to get out but there was just this wall of rage in the way.

The low standards expected of men mean that he'll be able to carry that rage, and all the shitty behaviour that comes from it, into an independent life in the adult world and there will be plenty of places where it will be accepted or encouraged.

 

[teqniq]

'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.

 

[bimble]

'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.

Insane but also seems to be very pointedly missing the point. All that 'advice' is for if you suspect the man might not be a REAL police officer, just pretending, as if real ones are safe.

 

[Poot]

I won't link to it because it's in the Mail, but I've just read that there are - surprise surprise - a number of racist, sexist, homophobic Whatsapp chats involving the killer. Hopefully any serving police officer involved in these chats will be hung out to dry, though I won't hold my breath.

 

[Chilli.s]

'Wave a bus down'

resisting arrest

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I'm not sure why you think cd's position tenable when her force has such a lamentable record under her leadership of refusing to accept criticism (eg the Daniel Morgan report) as well as egregious failures in investigating its own - thinking here of the accusations against WC. At some point she has to take responsibility for the met's in/actions.

You're right. My post was made when I was feeling very emotional about the whole disgusting case.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Rape and murder while pretending to be a police officer whose job on paper is to prevent that sort of thing happening.


Barrister needs to be done for contempt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.

They can't help themselves but to totally shit the bed on this can they? Breathtakingly stupid.

 

[Athos]

View attachment 290790

Rape and murder while pretending to be a police officer whose job on paper is to prevent that sort of thing happening.


Barrister needs to be done for contempt.

Attacking defence lawyers for doing their best for their clients within the law is a dodgy road to go down. Often, they're all that protect us from the state.

And this criticism is expecially poor given he didn't say what's claimed. He pointed out that:

"The majority of cases where whole life sentences have been imposed have been multiple killings or there have been a second conviction, child killings or politically motivated."

And added:

“Nothing I say today is intended to minimise the horror of what the defendant did that night.

"He makes no excuses for his actions. He knows he deserves a severe punishment.

"No person hearing statements from the Everard family yesterday can make any excuse for what he did.

"He is filled with self-loathing and shame. And he should be.”

 

[existentialist]

Attacking defence lawyers for doing their best for their clients within the law is a dodgy road to go down. Often, they're all that protect us from the state.

And this criticism is expecially poor given he didn't say what's claimed. He pointed out that:

"The majority of cases where whole life sentences have been imposed have been multiple killings or there have been a second conviction, child killings or politically motivated."

And added:

“Nothing I say today is intended to minimise the horror of what the defendant did that night.

"He makes no excuses for his actions. He knows he deserves a severe punishment.

"No person hearing statements from the Everard family yesterday can make any excuse for what he did.

"He is filled with self-loathing and shame. And he should be.”

It's a tricky tightrope. Barristers are supposed to represent the best interests of their clients, while at the same time obeying the rules of the court (I know you know this, Athos ). Nobody's going to like the idea of standing up for someone as loathsome as Sarah's murderer, but I agree with you that, for justice to be served and seen to be served, someone has to be there to speak for him. Which has duly been done, and I note that the judge was careful to acknowledge the defence's role in the running of the trial. And now, at least, the convicted party does not have the figleaf of being able to claim he was badly represented, or that justice was somehow not done in court.