RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

[ash]

I followed someone being arrested because I wanted to observe and its rough when 10 police surround you and drag you away
People shouted shame, pigs, scum....I didn't hear anyone shout about rape at that time or during another arrest when the police were pushing and kicking and shouting as well

There was a lot of shouting and anger from the crowd
I imagine not all the police thought it was the right strategy and it was likely quite shameful to hear cries of 'shame' 'arrest your own'
The police were under a type of psychic attack because there was an entire crowd United in condemning them loudly and silently with good reason

I’m not a habitual protester, I’ve been on the Iraq March, poll tax, several Remain marches and that’s it and I’m sure a lot of the crowd were the same. It was so obvious that the police just had to wait and it would have dispersed?!?!

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I’m not a habitual protester, I’ve been on the Iraq March, poll tax, several Remain marches and that’s it and I’m sure a lot of the crowd were the same. It was so obvious that the police just had to wait and it would have dispersed?!?!

I also think that it was a crowd who were unsure what they wanted to do: defend the bandstand? Resist the police? Stay? Go?

There hadn't been time for a plan beyond turn up despite Met police orders

Pretty sure the energy and spectacle and drama created by the police kept people there plus solidarity with people being arrested. It was difficult not to get caught up in the adrenaline provoked by the police

When someone else- a man? was arrested and marched in formation to a van in windmill drive, the police acted like they were under attack all in formation keeping body contact alternately kicking at people in the way, politely asking people to move or shouting at people to move ....that was partly because people, mainly men were saying dont let them pass but also cos press were running backwards in front of them to get a shot...I heard one police shout politely "press can you move back please" that felt a bit more like men had materialised to have a ruck but it was in response to police not started by them

 

[ash]

I also think that it was a crowd who were unsure what they wanted to do: defend the bandstand? Resist the police? Stay? Go?

There hadn't been time for a plan beyond turn up despite Met police orders

Pretty sure the energy and spectacle and drama created by the police kept people there plus solidarity with people being arrested

Definitely -we left before it fully kicked off but I would have stayed longer if it had and 16 year old daughter would definitely have

 

[Athos]

SheilaNaGig, I'm sorry that I upset you. That wasn't my intention.

I think it's a misunderstanding; that we're talking post each other. I'm certainly not saying you should or shouldn't feel a particular way.

Ultimately, it comes down to the meaning of the word 'defiant', which I see as an open challenge to authority. It strikes me that the MPS tried to assert authority (wrongly) to prevent women attending the vigil, but that women openly refused to be cowed. Whilst (for some at least) the purpose of attending wasn't to resist, it still represents a rejection of the authority to stop them.

I think that's a good thing, but I appreciate that you feel differently about the word, or what happened.

That we think/feel differently isn't me trying to say you're wrong, or that you don't know what you're talking about. But I'm sorry if anything I said came across like that.

 

[muscovyduck]

Ultimately, it comes down to the meaning of the word 'defiant', which I see as an open challenge to authority. It strikes me that the MPS tried to assert authority (wrongly) to prevent women attending the vigil, but that women openly refused to be cowed. Whilst (for some at least) the purpose of attending wasn't to resist, it still represents a rejection of the authority to stop them.

It's not about what the word literally means. I also don't think it's bad to be "angry".

 

[Athos]

It's not about what the word literally means. I also don't think it's bad to be "angry".

Absolutely. It's more about the fact that the word produces a different reaction in different people. I get how it makes her feel, and haven't argued with that.

 

[muscovyduck]

Absolutely. It's more about the fact that the word produces a different reaction in different people. I get how it makes her feel, and haven't argued with that.

No it's not about 'reaction' either. It's about how it's used and who is using it.

ETA: the problem with describing this issue as the 'reaction' is that it makes out like the person it's being used about, in this case woman, are the active problem. It's not, it's the people using the word and why they use it.

 

[Athos]

No it's not about 'reaction' either. It's about how it's used and who is using it.

ETA: the problem with describing this issue as the 'reaction' is that it makes out like the person it's being used about, in this case woman, are the active problem. It's not, it's the people using the word and why they use it.

In this case it's being used by someone on the same side (me), in an explicitly positive way.

And I don't think it's necessarily problematic for people to think/feel differently about something (though, of course, it can be).

Sheila and I interpret the term differently on an intellectual level, and it has different underlying connotations for each of us (and we can differ about that without saying the other is wrong).

I suppose the question is what we do with that? We can make it a point of dispute (between two people on broadly the same 'side'), or we can listen to each other and use that to inform how we interpret others' use of the word in future, and how we use it ourselves.

I'll certainly think twice about saying a woman has behaved defiantly, even when her conduct meets my understanding of the dictionary definition, and notwithstanding I think that defiance is positive.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

The "defiant" word: I didn't get SheilaNaGig's point until I read her post out aloud to Mrs SP - I was going to ask her what she thought the issue was, but just hearing myself voice the words made the penny drop. I wasn't at the vigil and I wouldn't speak for anyone else, but it is striking how the word "vigil" (not defiant at all) has morphed into "protest" (potentially defiant) to "riot" (definitely defiant). These words are important because their appropriation and (mis)use is all part of the weaponry of the permanent revolution that the (extreme?) right is pushing.

 

[Athos]

The "defiant" word: I didn't get SheilaNaGig's point until I read her post out aloud to Mrs SP - I was going to ask her what she thought the issue was, but just hearing myself voice the words made the penny drop. I wasn't at the vigil and I wouldn't speak for anyone else, but it is striking how the word "vigil" (not defiant at all) has morphed into "protest" (potentially defiant) to "riot" (definitely defiant). These words are important because their appropriation and (mis)use is all part of the weaponry of the permanent revolution that the (extreme?) right is pushing.

The trouble with that is that it gives the police too easy a time; they did purport to use their authority to prevent a vigil (wrongly in my opinion).

 

[two sheds]

So it only needs a couple of placards saying ACAB or the like to let the police steam in because "extremists have hijacked a protest". These new laws of Patel's are going to go wonderfully

 

[Struwwelpeter]

The trouble with that is that it gives the police too easy a time; they did purport to use their authority to prevent a vigil (wrongly in my opinion).

Now it's me not getting it. How is criticisng the aggressive policing of a (non-defiant) vigil giving the police an easy time?
(edited to make sense)

 

[Poot]

Agh! Why is everything focusing on the victims and not the fucking perpetrators AGAIN?

Yes i know why but I'm angry.

 

[Athos]

Now it's me not getting it. How is criticisng the aggressive policing of a (non-defiant) vigil giving the police an easy time?
(edited to make sense)

Because not recognising the defiance is not recognising their wrongful use of authority. Its significant that simply attending a vigil was in defiance of the police.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Priti Patel maintains that the vigil was hijacked by politicos/outsiders. What everyone should have noticed is that the police banned the vigil and the organisers backed down, told people to stay at home, provided no stewards. Because they understandably didn't want to be landed with huge fines. That meant that officially the vigil no longer existed. So although most people attending went there for a peaceful vigil some outsiders did turn up. They were mainly the police and by their actions they changed the mood of the event and it became more of a protest. It was still non-violent. The only violence came from the police. It was all their fault, from Cressida Dick at the top to the lowest copper at the bottom. Wouldn't it be a nice change if opposition MP's in parliament felt able to speak the simple truth on matters like this?

 

[Sue]

Athos, maybe shutting up and listening would be an idea?

 

[Athos]

Athos, maybe shutting up and listening would be an idea?

I am listening.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So it only needs a couple of placards saying ACAB or the like to let the police steam in because "extremists have hijacked a protest". These new laws of Patel's are going to go wonderfully

There used to be a feminist slogan 'All Men Are Potential Rapists', which upset some blokes but reflected the reality of how women approach the world, when going out at night, for example. Maybe ACAB should be replaced by ACAPB to defuse such situations? (All Coppers Are Potential Bastards)

 

[existentialist]

Oh FFS

Policing by kneejerk. As opposed to policing by jerk, which is largely self-evident.

 

[two sheds]

The terror continues after lockdown

No doubt will start picking people up with drugs, or who look like they might have drugs, or look suspicious in some way.

 

[Pickman's model]

No doubt will start picking people up with drugs, or who look like they might have drugs, or look suspicious in some way.

Or they might as so many of their colleagues have assault and humiliate clubbers and pubbers

 

[Mr paulee]

The terror continues after lockdown

Decent door staff will help with that not happening.

 

[Poot]

Decent door staff will help with that not happening.

Not sexually assaulting women will help that not happening.

 

[Brainaddict]

The terror continues after lockdown

Has there ever been a more tone deaf policy response?

Even if it were a good thing to have plains clothes cops in bars - and it isn't, it is not good at all - does anyone really believe they have the resources to do this in any significant way? As it is they are often stretched on Friday and Saturday nights dealing with alcohol-fueled violence. So even if it were a good idea (IT'S NOT) it would be tokenistic. Just so shit all round.

 

[Mr paulee]

Not sexually assaulting women will help that not happening.

Yes, that's a given.
But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
That's the point I am making.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, that's a given.
But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
That's the point I am making.

Variously reported as undercover or plain clothes cops according to the radio just now. I don't think they will be deployed as you suggest. And I believe that they will cause problems wherever they're deployed.

 

[Poot]

Yes, that's a given.
But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
That's the point I am making.

It doesn't seem to be a given. We talk about protecting women but we should be talking about preventing men.

 

[existentialist]

Yes, that's a given.
But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
That's the point I am making.

It's the wrong point.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Decent door staff will help with that not happening.

Lol. "Decent" door staff. I find they type of person that bouncering attracts are worse than coppers.

 

[Espresso]

Whoever thought of this as a policy and whoever agreed to it all want sacking.

Because it's not like it won't occur to men who do grope to use it. "I saw that man over there touch you as he passed, come over here with me. I'm one of those undercover police officers you've read about. You'll be fine with me."