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Release Lockerbie bomber Abdelbasset Ali al-Megrahi or not?

release al-Megrahi from prison or not?

  • al-Megrahi should die in a Scottish prison serving his sentence

    Votes: 61 37.4%
  • Transfer al-Megrahi to a Libyan jail to continue his sentence at home

    Votes: 19 11.7%
  • Release al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds

    Votes: 83 50.9%

  • Total voters
    163
I'm pretty sure the main parts of it have ... but the whole point of a circumstantial case is the nuanced argument that draws those parts together and suggests a conclusion. That could only be fully understood from a full transcript of the trial ... and I have not seen anything approaching one of them (and even that would lose something in being written down and not spoken).

Well, sure, but there has to come a point at which one stops saying "perhaps there are bits of the legal argument that still haven't been revealed which entirely justify all of the concerns I and others have" and starts saying "nah this is bollocks".
 
I'm not at all convinced he's innocent but I am convinced that his conviction's not sound, that he should have been retried if there were time, but that in view of his state of health releasing him to die is the least-worst option.

I'm also becoming convinced that the right decision has been made for the wrong reasons. When I posted that comment a few pages back about how political the whole business has been I was wrong to suggest Westminster had washed its hands of the whole business - in view of the apparent negotiations between Brown and Gadaffi six weeks ago - and didn't know about the supposed trade deals. The whole thing stinks to high heaven IMO.
Sorry to go down the Gabi route, but if it can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he was involved, then by legal definition he's innocent.

Personally I think the guy tried with him is more likely to be involved in that he was definitely on Malta at the time. It's possible that he was involved with the abu-Nidal terrorists on the island at the time. But that doesn't explain the break-in at Heathrow, without knowing more it's difficult for me to come to a conclusion on way or the other.

The only thing I am convinced off is that the key evidence used to convict al-Megrahi was unsafe.
 
But that doesn't explain the break-in at Heathrow...
You are making an assumption that the break-in at Heathrow was connected in some way. Whilst it would be a line of enquiry to be pursued, there is absolutely nothing I have seen which says that it was definitely anything to do with anything. In a complex chain such as we have here I suspect there are several unusual / potentially relevant incidents apart from that one.
 
Well, sure, but there has to come a point at which one stops saying "perhaps there are bits of the legal argument that still haven't been revealed which entirely justify all of the concerns I and others have" and starts saying "nah this is bollocks".
That's the difficulty - I'm not sure that we, the public, can ever have sufficient knowledge of even a simple case to second guess the decision of a court ... yes, we can question particular parts of the evidence, or the weight put on them, but as for the whole verdict ... (unless of course it is clear that some particular part of the evidence we have considered undermines the whole thing).
 
You are making an assumption that the break-in at Heathrow was connected in some way. Whilst it would be a line of enquiry to be pursued, there is absolutely nothing I have seen which says that it was definitely anything to do with anything. In a complex chain such as we have here I suspect there are several unusual / potentially relevant incidents apart from that one.
No, I'm not, all I'm saying is that my hypothesis doesn't account for it. The break-in may have more signifigance than I give it credit. It's an avenue for investigation that, according to PE wasn't explored.
 
That's the difficulty - I'm not sure that we, the public, can ever have sufficient knowledge of even a simple case to second guess the decision of a court ... yes, we can question particular parts of the evidence, or the weight put on them, but as for the whole verdict ... (unless of course it is clear that some particular part of the evidence we have considered undermines the whole thing).

Sorry - I really cannot accept that position. The result of it, if followed through, is that nobody can ever say a court decision was wrong unless they happened to be there. The evidence of plenty of people who were there is available - it may be in chunks, and in summaries, and so on - and evidence that wasn't even presented in court is available.

If there are enormous glaring problems with a case that no defender of it seems to be able to defend in the slightest, which is the case here, despite not being there throughout the whole thing I'm pretty confident in saying it's an immense miscarriage of justice and a politically-motivated fraud, and everything that's happened recently fits extraordinarily well with that too.
 
And this is the sort of thing that really fucking irritates me: right now on R4 we have three Scottish politicians and one interviewer talking about it, and the enormous elephant in the room that it's - at the very least - an incredibly dubious case, as put forward in all sorts of very mainstream-friendly sources, is just not even being mentioned. They're all speaking from the basis that he's guilty as sin, and the question is merely "was this bad for Scotland? was it within the remit of the Scottish government to release this evil terrorist?"

I'm going to point to this in future whenever anyone sneers at the US media, or that of any other country.
 
And this is the sort of thing that really fucking irritates me: right now on R4 we have three Scottish politicians and one interviewer talking about it, and the enormous elephant in the room that it's - at the very least - an incredibly dubious case, as put forward in all sorts of very mainstream-friendly sources, is just not even being mentioned. They're all speaking from the basis that he's guilty as sin, and the question is merely "was this bad for Scotland? was it within the remit of the Scottish government to release this evil terrorist?"

I'm going to point to this in future whenever anyone sneers at the US media, or that of any other country.

well they are hardly going to say Scotland govt capitulated with the English govt to release this person who they know categorically didn't do it and was a sacrifice lybia made to appease the US and Iran in return for cash and investment from both sides.

nor will the US govt ever admit it pursude a policy of breaking libya's ecomomy in order to prevent gadafi having power over OPEC which gained them cheaper oil or they'd also have to admit to their pulbic they'd lied about the entire incident and once you go down that route it's a short jump off before they say what other major terrorist plots have you totally misrepresented in order to make fat stacks...

so of course everyone's going to play it down and pretend he was guilty...

too much riding on the fact that he's dying of cancer....

here' hoping he writes a book before he goes about being gadafis shill and the us/uk/irans fall guy... would make interesting reading and would be justice for the poor bugger at least...
 
They're all speaking from the basis that he's guilty as sin, and the question is merely "was this bad for Scotland? was it within the remit of the Scottish government to release this evil terrorist?"
Given that Megrahi's conviction was unanimously upheld on appeal, what else are they supposed to do? Second-guessing the trial and appeal judges would just muddy the waters, and the issue will remain unresolved until a fresh appeal. The issue of whether he should be sent home is complicated enough, and needs to be treated in isolation.

Although regarding the trial, aren't there transcripts in the public record if people want to read them? Personally I'd like a comprehensive video record to be available as well, so justice can be seen to be done to everyone's satisfaction.
 
Given that Megrahi's conviction was unanimously upheld on appeal, what else are they supposed to do?

Say what should be obvious generally to rational human beings?

Obviously they won't, they're politicians and they have their reasons; that's part of what makes me angry.
 
Media in short attention span / uninterested in the facts / thick as shit shocker ... hold the front page a couple of paragraphs on page 94 ...

Nonetheless it needs saying now and again, just so we understand who the real winners are from this controversy...journalists.
 
Say what should be obvious generally to rational human beings?

Obviously they won't, they're politicians and they have their reasons; that's part of what makes me angry.
This is what I mean about debate over the conviction going round in circles. You seem to be suggesting that we replace legal procedure with a vague "common sense" belief in Megrahi's innocence. I'm sure there's a perfectly good case to be made that Megrahi's judges weren't irrational (especially given that five other judges agreed with them on appeal).

Whether the conviction is sound or not the blunt fact is that it currently stands and a decision had to be made about Megrahi's return on that basis. Megrahi's release and his innocence must be treated as two separate issues.

As an aside, I am beginning to wonder if the compromise-ridden trial in foreign parts was such a good idea, given all the doubt and suspicion it's created. However strong the desire for a culprit, perhaps we should have stuck to our guns and demanded that Megrahi be extradited to Scotland and the verdict be delivered by a Scottish jury.
 
This is what I mean about debate over the conviction going round in circles. You seem to be suggesting that we replace legal procedure with a vague "common sense" belief in Megrahi's innocence.

I made no suggestion of that at all. I'm not quite sure what you are responding to there.
 
FBI Outrage as Lockerbie bomber sold by Kingdom for Libyan oil.

<removed as C&P - no more of this - FM>

Cut and paste, moi? ;)
 
I made no suggestion of that at all. I'm not quite sure what you are responding to there.
Your view that commentators ought to "Say what should be obvious generally to rational human beings" instead of treating Megrahi as guilty. If you don't mean that they should say his conviction is unsafe, I'm not sure what you did mean there.
 
And this is the sort of thing that really fucking irritates me: right now on R4 we have three Scottish politicians and one interviewer talking about it, and the enormous elephant in the room that it's - at the very least - an incredibly dubious case, as put forward in all sorts of very mainstream-friendly sources, is just not even being mentioned. They're all speaking from the basis that he's guilty as sin, and the question is merely "was this bad for Scotland? was it within the remit of the Scottish government to release this evil terrorist?"
And what Jack McConnell should know - having been FM - is that it is within the remit of the Scottish Government; his own administration released convicted murderers on compassionate grounds. So it's highly disingenuous of him (and Obama and Hilary etc). They are all playing to what they think the gallery thinks, especially the American politicians, since they know all too well that this is in US interests.
 
I've been away so missed most of this thread, but regarding what danny said above about obama and clinton they didn't look at all like they even believed in what they were saying themselves. They were both pretty vague ''think it was a mistake'' said Obama. He doesn't say what sort. A diplomatic, america-appeasing one, maybe? ''convicted on evidence...'' - Clinton was looking all over the place and practically mumbling.
 
He was never convicted beyond reasonable doubt in a million years. So he shouldn't be in jail in the first place.

Compassionate realease is part of scots law. If they have a few months to live we let them out to die. The American Govt can kick up fuck all they want but ultimately it's nothing to do with them.
 
He was never convicted beyond reasonable doubt in a million years. So he shouldn't be in jail in the first place.

Compassionate realease is part of scots law. If they have a few months to live we let them out to die. The American Govt can kick up fuck all they want but ultimately it's nothing to do with them.

It has everything to do with them albeit they are barking up the wrong tree as the real guilty person is obviously gaddafi.
 
It has everything to do with them albeit they are barking up the wrong tree as the real guilty person is obviously gaddafi.

It's nothing to do with them. I understand it was American people on the flight and all but their Govt have no say on the scottish judicial system.
 
The Americans are going to boycott Scottish products - that is so :cool:

A website urging Americans to "Boycott Scotland" has been set up featuring a list of e-mail addresses for prominent Scottish and UK politicians, as well as contact details for Scottish newspapers and a list of Scottish products and companies.

The site accuses the Scottish and UK governments of committing a "flagrant betrayal" by releasing Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi.

It said a boycott was the "only way to send a clear and direct message" of American anger over the decision.

An online petition calling for a boycott of Scottish goods which was linked to by the website had attracted 460 signatures by Monday morning.

Grassroots campaigns were also taking hold on social networking sites such as Twitter and Facebook, while calls have even been made to have Scotch whisky renamed as Freedom Liquor.

Tourist body VisitScotland said it had received e-mails from Americans pledging to cancel holidays in Scotland.

Visitors from the US accounted for 340,000 trips to Scotland in 2008, and spent £260m in the country, according to figures published by VisitScotland.

This accounted for 21% of spending by people from outside the UK.

VisitScotland spokeswoman Alison Robb said: "We have had e-mails from people in America saying they're going to cancel their holidays but have had no cancellations through our booking engine.
source

:D

I love Americans - they are sooooo predictable.
 
I know. What exactly is it meant to achieve?


It makes them feel all clever and important.

They like to think that their actions will have you quivering in fear.

They really think that they are all that and a bag of chips.


We get boycotted a lot, btw. It never ceases to amaze me.....
 
Of course some enterprising person could set up a boycot America website for all the reasons there are and I bet it would attract a lot more signiatures.
 
Of course some enterprising person could set up a boycot America website for all the reasons there are and I bet it would attract a lot more signiatures.

I don't need a website to boycott them.

All their products are marked as "made in the USA", so I just purchase a similar product that says "made in....".

Simple - no fuss, no muss, no bother, no coding.
 
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